14 ms·

I agree. It's definitely not perfect, and I do view the rising inequality and stagnant wages as a serious issue. I just find it alarming that when people critic

I agree. It's definitely not perfect, and I do view the rising inequality and stagnant wages as a serious issue. I just find it alarming that when people criticize capitalism, they usually advocate for some variety of full blown socialism, which has been tried many times before and failed disastrously every single time. I don't know what the solution is. Every government intervention has the potential to distort the market and create corrupt/perverse incentives. Rent control is a great example of something that sounds nice on paper but ends up increasing housing costs as a result. I'm generally in favor of expanding the welfare state but I think we should be extremely cautious in doing so.

ryandrake 8y ago
Unfortunately, we seem to be stuck in this situation where we can't muster up the political will to try anything that has any elements of the dreaded "socialism". It's like a ratchet that can only go one acceptable way: More capitalism.
- fbonetti 8y ago
  Yeah, it's unfortunate that the word "socialism" has completely lost it's meaning in the US. I don't think Americans truly comprehend how radical Socialism actually is. To compare increasing the minimum wage with Socialism is beyond absurd. Terms like "welfare state" are also loaded with negative connotations.
  - ryandrake 8y ago
    Concepts like "socialism" and "unions" have sustained a relentless smear campaign orchestrated by the right for decades. The propaganda is so bad that it's probably worse to be labeled a socialist than to be labeled a pedophile in the USA.
krapp 8y ago
>I just find it alarming that when people criticize capitalism, they usually advocate for some variety of full blown socialism, which has been tried many times before and failed disastrously every single time. And yet something less than full blown socialism seems to work fine just about everywhere.
s73v3r_ 8y ago
"I just find it alarming that when people criticize capitalism, they usually advocate for some variety of full blown socialism, which has been tried many times before and failed disastrously every single time." Scandinavia says hi. And those "disastrous" times you're talking about are more the result of dictators, than any economic system used.
- fbonetti 8y ago
  > Scandinavia says hi. Idk, maybe I'm spending too much on the internet but it seems like the discussion around inequality has shifted from "let's increase the welfare state" to "let's dismantle capitalism and give socialism a try". There seem to be a lot of people these days that call themselves Marxists or capital-S Socialists, and even some who are apologists for the likes of Stalin and Mao. These people are everywhere on Reddit and HackerNews. I'm all for the Scandinavian model (which, to be clear, is capitalism with a large welfare state and a sovereign wealth fund, not socialism), but do I want a planned economy or a dictatorship of the proletariat? No, because it doesn't work. > And those "disastrous" times you're talking about are more the result of dictators, than any economic system used. Socialists use this argument a lot but I can't think of a scenario in which socialism doesn't eventually devolve into fascism. Even if the means of production are owned by the workers, the workplaces are run democratically, and resources are allocated by direct consensus, you'll still need to use coercion to force people to participate in the economy. If people in village A need more grain and the farmers in village B don't want to produce more grain, do you point a gun to the farmers' heads and make them produce more grain? Disagreements will still happen in Socialist societies. People will still fundamentally be selfish. People will still want to barter with each other and enrich themselves through their labor, intellect, and unique talents. How do you seize peoples' property, prevent them from bartering and hoarding, and force them to participate in a planned economy without a massive and violent state apparatus? The great thing about capitalism is that it recognizes the inherent self-interestedness of human beings and channels it into something that is (mostly) positive for society. Socialism starts with the premise that human beings would behave in higher-minded way if only they had more economic power, which I think is a flawed assumption and the reason why socialist economies will always fail.

ryandrake 8y ago

Unfortunately, we seem to be stuck in this situation where we can't muster up the political will to try anything that has any elements of the dreaded "socialism". It's like a ratchet that can only go one acceptable way: More capitalism.

fbonetti 8y ago
Yeah, it's unfortunate that the word "socialism" has completely lost it's meaning in the US. I don't think Americans truly comprehend how radical Socialism actually is. To compare increasing the minimum wage with Socialism is beyond absurd. Terms like "welfare state" are also loaded with negative connotations.
- ryandrake 8y ago
  Concepts like "socialism" and "unions" have sustained a relentless smear campaign orchestrated by the right for decades. The propaganda is so bad that it's probably worse to be labeled a socialist than to be labeled a pedophile in the USA.

krapp 8y ago

>I just find it alarming that when people criticize capitalism, they usually advocate for some variety of full blown socialism, which has been tried many times before and failed disastrously every single time. And yet something less than full blown socialism seems to work fine just about everywhere.

s73v3r_ 8y ago

"I just find it alarming that when people criticize capitalism, they usually advocate for some variety of full blown socialism, which has been tried many times before and failed disastrously every single time." Scandinavia says hi. And those "disastrous" times you're talking about are more the result of dictators, than any economic system used.

fbonetti 8y ago
> Scandinavia says hi. Idk, maybe I'm spending too much on the internet but it seems like the discussion around inequality has shifted from "let's increase the welfare state" to "let's dismantle capitalism and give socialism a try". There seem to be a lot of people these days that call themselves Marxists or capital-S Socialists, and even some who are apologists for the likes of Stalin and Mao. These people are everywhere on Reddit and HackerNews. I'm all for the Scandinavian model (which, to be clear, is capitalism with a large welfare state and a sovereign wealth fund, not socialism), but do I want a planned economy or a dictatorship of the proletariat? No, because it doesn't work. > And those "disastrous" times you're talking about are more the result of dictators, than any economic system used. Socialists use this argument a lot but I can't think of a scenario in which socialism doesn't eventually devolve into fascism. Even if the means of production are owned by the workers, the workplaces are run democratically, and resources are allocated by direct consensus, you'll still need to use coercion to force people to participate in the economy. If people in village A need more grain and the farmers in village B don't want to produce more grain, do you point a gun to the farmers' heads and make them produce more grain? Disagreements will still happen in Socialist societies. People will still fundamentally be selfish. People will still want to barter with each other and enrich themselves through their labor, intellect, and unique talents. How do you seize peoples' property, prevent them from bartering and hoarding, and force them to participate in a planned economy without a massive and violent state apparatus? The great thing about capitalism is that it recognizes the inherent self-interestedness of human beings and channels it into something that is (mostly) positive for society. Socialism starts with the premise that human beings would behave in higher-minded way if only they had more economic power, which I think is a flawed assumption and the reason why socialist economies will always fail.