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Ditto. I also attempted to do this full-time but only managed to squeak out a moderate living, and eventually grew sour with those points of intense rage (going

Ditto. I also attempted to do this full-time but only managed to squeak out a moderate living, and eventually grew sour with those points of intense rage (going on tilt) that would crush weeks (and sometimes months) of work. It's strange how poker works but I imagine Buddhism and poker to be the most complimentary religion-to-profession complement on the planet. And I agree with the first point - poker is an empty job. You do not create wealth - you make another poor soul, likely a gambling addict, further burdened by that addiction. Meanwhile, the only person you're "creating wealth" for is the guy with his feet up that owns the poker room.

city41 16y ago
I remember reading in a poker magazine where they had asked several professional players what it's like to be a poker player and they all agreed it's actually rather depressing. Your job becomes preying on people with gambling problems, and the whole idea of "emptiness" was brought up by everyone. I wish I could find that article again.
- varaon 16y ago
  >Your job becomes preying on people with gambling problems Or perhaps you have a gambling problem, but are successful enough to deny it. FTA: > "Looking back, what I've figured out," he says, "is that no matter the amount of money poker players win, they still want more. You're never happy."
  - edanm 16y ago
    I'm not sure you can really call this a "problem". That's like saying someone has an "entrepreneurship" problem because they keep wanting to create new companies from zero. If they're successful at it, why not?
    - varaon 16y ago
      I was trying to point out that successful poker players might be a part of the same group they're "preying on" - those with gambling addictions. Of course, as you said, they're successful, so the addiction might not be considered a problem. However, if it is an addiction they may be financially successful, but unable to psychologically satisfy their their appetite for money or risk. I wouldn't say that any serial startup founder has an "entrepreneurship problem", but if they were never satisfied with their accomplishments, I would view that as a negative. The quote from the article was: >"[T]hey still want more. You're never happy." I would consider that anyone who repeats a cycle of behaviour with the goal of achieving happiness or satisfaction but who always feels disappointed or unsettled might have a problem.
      - city41 16y ago
        It seems to me "always wanting more and never being happy" is a pretty common human condition, especially in the west. Hell, the entire advertising industry thrives on reminding us of this condition. A good book that deals with this is "The Happiness Trap" by Russ Harris. I've really enjoyed applying his techniques to my life and being more content because of it.
heyitsnick 16y ago
> You do not create wealth - you make another poor soul, likely a gambling addict, further burdened by that addiction. Meanwhile, the only person you're "creating wealth" for is the guy with his feet up that owns the poker room. Does a sportsman make wealth? What about a professional chess player? Snooker player? Pool hustler? What about a brewery, "further burdening that addiction" of alcoholism? What about the barman what served the drink? Just creating wealth for the pub? The sommelier? What if I start a start-up that's about 'social' betting, like a betfair exchange about film stars? What if I shake up the gambling industry with my social facebook Zynga poker that launches real-money tables? Your concept of what is a 'valued' job seems very narrow. Gambling is an enjoyable past-time for millions, throughout history, in cultures around the world. For every sad story of gambling addition, that are thousands who enjoy gambling responsibly on a recreational basis, just for every alcoholic there are thousands that enjoy drinking socially. And some social gamblers sometimes blow a bit too much, just like social drinkers sometimes go overboard at the weekends. Things aren't black and white. And those professionals provide the entertainment that others enjoy, either directly (from spectators on TV) or indirectly (providing that example that 'the game can be beat'). Sure it's not the most worthwhile job in the world in the grand scheme of directly creating wealth, or improving man-kind. But then, dare I say it, nor do do many a start-up.
- edanm 16y ago
  You've definitely got a point. But I still feel that even most of the other things you mentioned create more wealth. I'll try and explain my feelings, but I might do a poor job of it. Sure, professional sports players, chess players, etc. are not creating material wealth (I'll sidestep the hustler issues for now). The thing is, they are creating wealth by pg's definition, i.e. creating something people want (entertainment, in this case, that people can view). Compare that with pro poker players. Ask most players what they want (who they want to play against), and they won't tell you that they want to play against a pro. I think pros make most of their money, "preying" on poor players who don't realize they're up against a pro. In that sense, pro players are not really creating wealth, they're tricking other people. Of course, I'm completely ignoring a part of the poker world which does create wealth, i.e. the televised matches. These are obviously equal to spectator sports. Still, I think the majority of players who grind out a living playing against weaker players really aren't adding wealth to the world. Hope that was clear. I'm not anti-poker players or anything, I love poker, I'm just explaining why I would never do it for a living.
xiaoma 16y ago
>poker is an empty job. You do not create wealth - you make another poor soul, likely a gambling addict, further burdened by that addiction. An alternate perspective is that you're providing an education for a fee.

city41 16y ago

I remember reading in a poker magazine where they had asked several professional players what it's like to be a poker player and they all agreed it's actually rather depressing. Your job becomes preying on people with gambling problems, and the whole idea of "emptiness" was brought up by everyone. I wish I could find that article again.

varaon 16y ago
>Your job becomes preying on people with gambling problems Or perhaps you have a gambling problem, but are successful enough to deny it. FTA: > "Looking back, what I've figured out," he says, "is that no matter the amount of money poker players win, they still want more. You're never happy."
- edanm 16y ago
  I'm not sure you can really call this a "problem". That's like saying someone has an "entrepreneurship" problem because they keep wanting to create new companies from zero. If they're successful at it, why not?
  - varaon 16y ago
    I was trying to point out that successful poker players might be a part of the same group they're "preying on" - those with gambling addictions. Of course, as you said, they're successful, so the addiction might not be considered a problem. However, if it is an addiction they may be financially successful, but unable to psychologically satisfy their their appetite for money or risk. I wouldn't say that any serial startup founder has an "entrepreneurship problem", but if they were never satisfied with their accomplishments, I would view that as a negative. The quote from the article was: >"[T]hey still want more. You're never happy." I would consider that anyone who repeats a cycle of behaviour with the goal of achieving happiness or satisfaction but who always feels disappointed or unsettled might have a problem.
    - city41 16y ago
      It seems to me "always wanting more and never being happy" is a pretty common human condition, especially in the west. Hell, the entire advertising industry thrives on reminding us of this condition. A good book that deals with this is "The Happiness Trap" by Russ Harris. I've really enjoyed applying his techniques to my life and being more content because of it.

heyitsnick 16y ago

> You do not create wealth - you make another poor soul, likely a gambling addict, further burdened by that addiction. Meanwhile, the only person you're "creating wealth" for is the guy with his feet up that owns the poker room. Does a sportsman make wealth? What about a professional chess player? Snooker player? Pool hustler? What about a brewery, "further burdening that addiction" of alcoholism? What about the barman what served the drink? Just creating wealth for the pub? The sommelier? What if I start a start-up that's about 'social' betting, like a betfair exchange about film stars? What if I shake up the gambling industry with my social facebook Zynga poker that launches real-money tables? Your concept of what is a 'valued' job seems very narrow. Gambling is an enjoyable past-time for millions, throughout history, in cultures around the world. For every sad story of gambling addition, that are thousands who enjoy gambling responsibly on a recreational basis, just for every alcoholic there are thousands that enjoy drinking socially. And some social gamblers sometimes blow a bit too much, just like social drinkers sometimes go overboard at the weekends. Things aren't black and white. And those professionals provide the entertainment that others enjoy, either directly (from spectators on TV) or indirectly (providing that example that 'the game can be beat'). Sure it's not the most worthwhile job in the world in the grand scheme of directly creating wealth, or improving man-kind. But then, dare I say it, nor do do many a start-up.

edanm 16y ago
You've definitely got a point. But I still feel that even most of the other things you mentioned create more wealth. I'll try and explain my feelings, but I might do a poor job of it. Sure, professional sports players, chess players, etc. are not creating material wealth (I'll sidestep the hustler issues for now). The thing is, they are creating wealth by pg's definition, i.e. creating something people want (entertainment, in this case, that people can view). Compare that with pro poker players. Ask most players what they want (who they want to play against), and they won't tell you that they want to play against a pro. I think pros make most of their money, "preying" on poor players who don't realize they're up against a pro. In that sense, pro players are not really creating wealth, they're tricking other people. Of course, I'm completely ignoring a part of the poker world which does create wealth, i.e. the televised matches. These are obviously equal to spectator sports. Still, I think the majority of players who grind out a living playing against weaker players really aren't adding wealth to the world. Hope that was clear. I'm not anti-poker players or anything, I love poker, I'm just explaining why I would never do it for a living.

xiaoma 16y ago

>poker is an empty job. You do not create wealth - you make another poor soul, likely a gambling addict, further burdened by that addiction. An alternate perspective is that you're providing an education for a fee.