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> Yeah, I'm not talking about gender/race though. I'm talking about regions. The point is that the same underlying principle applies in both cases. If you're g

> Yeah, I'm not talking about gender/race though. I'm talking about regions. The point is that the same underlying principle applies in both cases. If you're going to extend extra voting power for minorities for geography, why not for {set of other personal attributes}? In practice, most people defending this setup -- it often comes up in discussions around the electoral college -- seem to support it simply because it happens to align with their own political objectives. It gives their state extra votes, so awesome! Understandable, but hardly principled. > And actually, yes, most of this anger is linked to a feeling that people in rural areas have too little representation compared to major population centers, Well yeah, they have less representation because we're in a democracy and there are fewer people there. I'm not terribly sympathetic to "I deserve extra voting power because of my lifestyle choice". > So this illustrates what happens when you've got proportional representation but a completely unbalanced population distribution What does "balanced" even mean in this context? Most people lived in rural areas when farming was most people's job, and now that we live in the information age, most people live in cities. Are both of those imbalanced? Because to me, it just sounds like in both cases, people simply adapted the needs of the time. Simply pointing out that most people live in urban areas to prove "imbalance" is like pointing out that we have far more believers than non-believers around, therefore the religious belief distribution is "imbalanced". Who exactly is deciding what "balance" looks like for things like this? > It's fine when everything is going well, but when the mills close down and the farms go out of business, you get a lot of angry people who feel they have no political outlet. There are certainly some people who feel that way, but unemployment is low, and moving to where the jobs are (in the cities) remains an option. I don't have a ton of sympathy here, given that the very same areas we're talking about usually practically worship the free market and like talking up how "self-reliant" they are (while simultaneously being heavily reliant on government subsidies from urban areas and demanding that the government protect their way of life). It would be nice to at least see a little more ideological consistency, a little less hypocrisy.

ameister14 8y ago
We are not in a Democracy. We live in a Republic. For a guy who's name comes from Cicero, you don't seem hot on the legal or organizational distinction. [edit] You say the point is that the same underlying principle applies in both cases; I don't agree. Geography doesn't have anything to do with personal characteristics. If you own land, you are tied to it. It's not easy to move, and we don't usually want people to move because if you stay in a place, you tend to improve it. I'm not sure why you brought up that most people arguing about something tend to pick the side that benefits them. I live in New York City. This does not benefit me. When I referred to rural vs urban population distribution, balanced meant an even distribution. What else would it have meant? Your sympathy or lack thereof isn't the point. The point is that we have a system that works pretty well - part of the reason is that it was created without depending entirely on people's better nature. Ideological consistency doesn't really play into that.
- TulliusCicero 8y ago
  > We are not in a Democracy. We live in a Republic. We live in both these things. Well actually I live in Germany at the moment, but I'll be coming back someday! > Geography doesn't have anything to do with personal characteristics. Don't be ridiculous, where you choose to live doesn't count as a personal characteristic? You can find endless examples of people who disagree, just ask. > If you own land, you are tied to it. It's not easy to move, and we don't usually want people to move because if you stay in a place, you tend to improve it. There are both upsides and downsides to people being tied down. You're right, people who own in a place are more invested in it. On the other hand, we want a certain amount of labor fluidity as different metros and industries rise and fall. There are people who insist on staying in their hometown even though the jobs have all left and aren't coming back anytime soon, and often that's not great for them or the government. > I'm not sure why you brought up that most people arguing about something tend to pick the side that benefits them. I live in New York City. This does not benefit me. I'm talking about what I've usually seen. I'm not saying it applies 100% of the time. > When I referred to rural vs urban population distribution, balanced meant an even distribution. What else would it have meant? That's absurd. If I talk about "people who live in a major city vs people who don't", then suddenly it's the people living in major cities (proper, not metro area) who are a "minority". The lines here are completely arbitrary. Or take farmers vs not-farmers. Oh no, it's imbalanced because only like 2% of people are employed in farm work! > The point is that we have a system that works pretty well It works reasonably well, but it would still work well, and likely better, if representation was simply one person, one vote, without any special handouts based on where you live or who you are or what you do for a living.
  - ameister14 8y ago
    >That's absurd. If I talk about "people who live in a major city vs people who don't", then suddenly it's the people living in major cities (proper, not metro area) who are a "minority". The lines here are completely arbitrary. >Or take farmers vs not-farmers. Oh no, it's imbalanced because only like 2% of people are employed in farm work! I wasn't saying that balance was good and imbalance was bad - I was saying that it had an extremely uneven population distribution, which it does. It's not an 'oh no!' situation, it's another variable. >It works reasonably well, but it would still work well, and likely better, if representation was simply one person, one vote, without any special handouts based on where you live or who you are or what you do for a living. I don't know any place that follows that rule, and theoretically I can find some ways that it wouldn't work better or at all if it was a much more direct democracy without subsidies of any kind.

ameister14 8y ago

We are not in a Democracy. We live in a Republic. For a guy who's name comes from Cicero, you don't seem hot on the legal or organizational distinction. [edit] You say the point is that the same underlying principle applies in both cases; I don't agree. Geography doesn't have anything to do with personal characteristics. If you own land, you are tied to it. It's not easy to move, and we don't usually want people to move because if you stay in a place, you tend to improve it. I'm not sure why you brought up that most people arguing about something tend to pick the side that benefits them. I live in New York City. This does not benefit me. When I referred to rural vs urban population distribution, balanced meant an even distribution. What else would it have meant? Your sympathy or lack thereof isn't the point. The point is that we have a system that works pretty well - part of the reason is that it was created without depending entirely on people's better nature. Ideological consistency doesn't really play into that.

TulliusCicero 8y ago
> We are not in a Democracy. We live in a Republic. We live in both these things. Well actually I live in Germany at the moment, but I'll be coming back someday! > Geography doesn't have anything to do with personal characteristics. Don't be ridiculous, where you choose to live doesn't count as a personal characteristic? You can find endless examples of people who disagree, just ask. > If you own land, you are tied to it. It's not easy to move, and we don't usually want people to move because if you stay in a place, you tend to improve it. There are both upsides and downsides to people being tied down. You're right, people who own in a place are more invested in it. On the other hand, we want a certain amount of labor fluidity as different metros and industries rise and fall. There are people who insist on staying in their hometown even though the jobs have all left and aren't coming back anytime soon, and often that's not great for them or the government. > I'm not sure why you brought up that most people arguing about something tend to pick the side that benefits them. I live in New York City. This does not benefit me. I'm talking about what I've usually seen. I'm not saying it applies 100% of the time. > When I referred to rural vs urban population distribution, balanced meant an even distribution. What else would it have meant? That's absurd. If I talk about "people who live in a major city vs people who don't", then suddenly it's the people living in major cities (proper, not metro area) who are a "minority". The lines here are completely arbitrary. Or take farmers vs not-farmers. Oh no, it's imbalanced because only like 2% of people are employed in farm work! > The point is that we have a system that works pretty well It works reasonably well, but it would still work well, and likely better, if representation was simply one person, one vote, without any special handouts based on where you live or who you are or what you do for a living.
- ameister14 8y ago
  >That's absurd. If I talk about "people who live in a major city vs people who don't", then suddenly it's the people living in major cities (proper, not metro area) who are a "minority". The lines here are completely arbitrary. >Or take farmers vs not-farmers. Oh no, it's imbalanced because only like 2% of people are employed in farm work! I wasn't saying that balance was good and imbalance was bad - I was saying that it had an extremely uneven population distribution, which it does. It's not an 'oh no!' situation, it's another variable. >It works reasonably well, but it would still work well, and likely better, if representation was simply one person, one vote, without any special handouts based on where you live or who you are or what you do for a living. I don't know any place that follows that rule, and theoretically I can find some ways that it wouldn't work better or at all if it was a much more direct democracy without subsidies of any kind.