5 ms·

Interesting article, although it kinda reinforces a false dichotomy - just because this player had an unhealthy lifestyle playing poker, doesn't mean you can't

• evansolomon 16y ago
  There actually are several aspects of being a poker player (online) that make it really hard, though surely not impossible, to live a normal life. You have very little interaction with other people, your working hours are partially out of your control, and it is incredibly stressful/tiring. I know a few people who managed to combine poker with a normal life, but I know way more who utterly failed. Sincerely, A guy who used to do this
  • InfinityX0 16y ago
    Ditto. I also attempted to do this full-time but only managed to squeak out a moderate living, and eventually grew sour with those points of intense rage (going on tilt) that would crush weeks (and sometimes months) of work. It's strange how poker works but I imagine Buddhism and poker to be the most complimentary religion-to-profession complement on the planet. And I agree with the first point - poker is an empty job. You do not create wealth - you make another poor soul, likely a gambling addict, further burdened by that addiction. Meanwhile, the only person you're "creating wealth" for is the guy with his feet up that owns the poker room.
    • city41 16y ago
      I remember reading in a poker magazine where they had asked several professional players what it's like to be a poker player and they all agreed it's actually rather depressing. Your job becomes preying on people with gambling problems, and the whole idea of "emptiness" was brought up by everyone. I wish I could find that article again.
      • varaon 16y ago
        >Your job becomes preying on people with gambling problems Or perhaps you have a gambling problem, but are successful enough to deny it. FTA: > "Looking back, what I've figured out," he says, "is that no matter the amount of money poker players win, they still want more. You're never happy."
        • edanm 16y ago
          I'm not sure you can really call this a "problem". That's like saying someone has an "entrepreneurship" problem because they keep wanting to create new companies from zero. If they're successful at it, why not?
          • varaon 16y ago
            I was trying to point out that successful poker players might be a part of the same group they're "preying on" - those with gambling addictions. Of course, as you said, they're successful, so the addiction might not be considered a problem. However, if it is an addiction they may be financially successful, but unable to psychologically satisfy their their appetite for money or risk. I wouldn't say that any serial startup founder has an "entrepreneurship problem", but if they were never satisfied with their accomplishments, I would view that as a negative. The quote from the article was: >"[T]hey still want more. You're never happy." I would consider that anyone who repeats a cycle of behaviour with the goal of achieving happiness or satisfaction but who always feels disappointed or unsettled might have a problem.
            • city41 16y ago
              It seems to me "always wanting more and never being happy" is a pretty common human condition, especially in the west. Hell, the entire advertising industry thrives on reminding us of this condition. A good book that deals with this is "The Happiness Trap" by Russ Harris. I've really enjoyed applying his techniques to my life and being more content because of it.
    • heyitsnick 16y ago
      > You do not create wealth - you make another poor soul, likely a gambling addict, further burdened by that addiction. Meanwhile, the only person you're "creating wealth" for is the guy with his feet up that owns the poker room. Does a sportsman make wealth? What about a professional chess player? Snooker player? Pool hustler? What about a brewery, "further burdening that addiction" of alcoholism? What about the barman what served the drink? Just creating wealth for the pub? The sommelier? What if I start a start-up that's about 'social' betting, like a betfair exchange about film stars? What if I shake up the gambling industry with my social facebook Zynga poker that launches real-money tables? Your concept of what is a 'valued' job seems very narrow. Gambling is an enjoyable past-time for millions, throughout history, in cultures around the world. For every sad story of gambling addition, that are thousands who enjoy gambling responsibly on a recreational basis, just for every alcoholic there are thousands that enjoy drinking socially. And some social gamblers sometimes blow a bit too much, just like social drinkers sometimes go overboard at the weekends. Things aren't black and white. And those professionals provide the entertainment that others enjoy, either directly (from spectators on TV) or indirectly (providing that example that 'the game can be beat'). Sure it's not the most worthwhile job in the world in the grand scheme of directly creating wealth, or improving man-kind. But then, dare I say it, nor do do many a start-up.
      • edanm 16y ago
        You've definitely got a point. But I still feel that even most of the other things you mentioned create more wealth. I'll try and explain my feelings, but I might do a poor job of it. Sure, professional sports players, chess players, etc. are not creating material wealth (I'll sidestep the hustler issues for now). The thing is, they are creating wealth by pg's definition, i.e. creating something people want (entertainment, in this case, that people can view). Compare that with pro poker players. Ask most players what they want (who they want to play against), and they won't tell you that they want to play against a pro. I think pros make most of their money, "preying" on poor players who don't realize they're up against a pro. In that sense, pro players are not really creating wealth, they're tricking other people. Of course, I'm completely ignoring a part of the poker world which does create wealth, i.e. the televised matches. These are obviously equal to spectator sports. Still, I think the majority of players who grind out a living playing against weaker players really aren't adding wealth to the world. Hope that was clear. I'm not anti-poker players or anything, I love poker, I'm just explaining why I would never do it for a living.
    • xiaoma 16y ago
      >poker is an empty job. You do not create wealth - you make another poor soul, likely a gambling addict, further burdened by that addiction. An alternate perspective is that you're providing an education for a fee.
  • edanm 16y ago
    "You have very little interaction with other people, your working hours are partially out of your control, and it is incredibly stressful/tiring." Sounds exactly like my current situation as an internet entrepreneur :)
  • matt1 16y ago
    There actually are several aspects of being a poker player (online) that make it really hard, though surely not impossible, to live a normal life. You have very little interaction with other people, your working hours are partially out of your control, and it is incredibly stressful/tiring. I also used to play a ton of online poker and it was my ability to balance it all that ultimately convinced me I'd be better off trying to found a startup. A lot of the skills overlap, which is why many of the successful high stakes players also have profitable side businesses. If you're looking for an excellent discussion by a bunch of very successful online players on what they want to do with their lives, check out this thread, which is titled Poker vs Law School vs Trading: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/19/high-stakes-pl-nl/nc-my-next-move-poker-vs-law-school-vs-trading-292692/ http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/19/high-stakes-pl-nl/nc-my...
  • andrewljohnson 16y ago
    The stresses of being a pro poker-player are roughly the same as being a start-up founder. My problem was it just got to be too much poker - poker for work, poker for fun, and I couldn't talk to anyone about anything but poker. The same thing happens with start-ups, but the conversation doesn't always start, "So I had KK in the big blind...," so it's more interesting.
  • heyitsnick 16y ago
    I agree many people utterly fail, because I think that's largely because the past-time itself attracts those who have difficulties with addiction, time-management, and social interaction. You list some things that make it really hard to live a normal life, but I disagree with some can offer counter-points to others. You say there is little interaction with other people. This is true for many but doesn't have to be the case. I spend a lot of 'work time' talking with like-minded professionals, studying together or just daily banter. I probably have more social interaction through work than the time I worked in a small development company, and certainly more during my periods of (failing to) run startups. You say working hours are partially out of your control, but with most forms of poker you can work any time of the day (literally any time in 24 hours, 7 days a week) - some times may be better than others, depending on the game you play. There's a lot to be done away from the table if the games are quiet. Compare this to the lack of flexibility with any other job: either a rigid 9-5, or at least restrictions on when business is to be done (conference calls, deadlines). It can be stressful and tiring, but listening to some start-up stories here on HN, it can hardly compare! Some of you guys are working yourselves to death! Certainly you can put in long hours in poker, but it's a daily choice. The more hours at the table, the more money. I also believe that poker is actually fairly low-variance compared to other jobs, such as a running a start-up: Long days with long nights, hacking at weekends, all for a very high risk of failure months or even years down the line. With poker you can't count on a weekly (or even monthly) pay-check but in the long term, you cash in with regularity Personally I like to work around 3 hours a day, 7 days a week. I might put in a short morning session, and a short evening session. Doing this it feels like I have all the day off to spend socialising, hacking on some pet project, relaxing. You don't have to hit the high-stakes to make a living from poker. In the "5-hour-work-week" concept of salary you earn very high, because I have no commute and flexibility to live anywhere in the world. I have moved continent 3 times in the last 3 years. I can jump on a plane and visit friends anywhere, and as long as I have an internet connection I know I can be there, on holiday and making money at the same time. And if you manage your time correctly, you should have time to fully develop other projects, be they startup ideas, or just other, more life-fulfilling hobbies. There are certainly negatives to the job, but - at least to me - there's an overwhelming number of positives that many (including a lot of professionals) just don't focus on. If you take advantage of what the job has to offer there's no reason it should be the lonely, frustrating grind that many feel; quite the contrary.
• adw 16y ago
  One thing you've got to accept, though, is that if you're in this to make a really good company, you're going to hurt people. You're going to make people redundant. Your company is going to destroy someone else's value. It might create more in total, but you're going to cause damage. It can't be avoided.
• bapadna 16y ago
  Poker is an education and entertainment product. Entertainment, because professional players are allowing amateurs to pay to meet better players, and test their skills against them. There really aren't many other games where this is the case. Education, because there are huge numbers of available lessons (in both hard and soft skills) for players who decide to think about the game deeply. I don't see anything "empty" about it. But then again, I'm a winning poker player who ported lessons from poker into everything from business to my golf game. It's had such a positive impact on my life that I can't view it negatively.
• andrewljohnson 16y ago
  I made good money playing online poker - that's what I did for money the last year of college and the first year after I graduated. My group were some of the first people to adopt player databases to get stats on opponents. Some kids at my college made the first of these types of programs, and we knew them. Any smart person can make money playing online poker. But there's more money in making software, by many orders of magnitude.
• Watermelon 16y ago
  "But only after reading Paul Graham's articles on Wealth, I realized why making a fortune from poker always seemed "empty" to me: you're not really creating wealth that way." You needed to read PG's essays to figure that out? Gee, no wonder some people joke that HN and YC look like a cult at times. Do all your thoughts on wealth-creation stem from PG's gospel?
• jdietrich 16y ago
  Playing for a living is nothing like playing for fun. The psychological pressure to stay on form, the fatigue of playing hour after hour of poker, the uncertainty of chasing fish, the knowledge that your only career prospects are to play for higher stakes - it can be absolutely crushing. The great paradox of poker is that the more you care about the money, the less you are able to think rationally and impartially. There's a strong argument that the only real difference between world class tournament players and averagely profitable semi-pros is the ability to keep playing your 'A' game when there are millions of dollars on the table. Plenty of skilled pros end up blowing their money because it just doesn't mean anything to them - the obvious example is Stu Ungar, who earned millions at poker and lost millions betting on golf. It doesn't matter one jot how well you play at your best, what matters is how well you play when you're stressed and upset and ill and exhausted and it's 2am and the fish whose money you need to take is calling your mother a whore. That's the real job of playing professional poker - you're on a tightrope where an hour of perfect poker earns you $80 but an hour on tilt can lose you $800. The skills that allow you to turn pro are learned as an amateur, but there's a whole other set of skills required to stick it out without losing your mind. I had the former, but not the latter. I walked away from poker because I am absolutely certain it would have killed me.
  • nostrademons 16y ago
    Sounds a lot like starting a company...
    • mattmaroon 16y ago
      Starting a company is a walk in the park in comparison. My stress level has gone down enormously.
• mattmaroon 16y ago
  I thought the same thing going in (I played for a living for almost 6 years) but discovered that you can't lead a perfectly healthy and otherwise normal life. And I'm pretty sure it isn't just that I couldn't, because once you get to know them you realize not one of the hundreds of successful professional poker players (much less the thousands of unsuccessful ones) have managed it. Some have gotten part of the way there, some have become sad junkies, but nobody's ever anything that even remotely resembles normal. My theories as to why would be too long for this forum, but the two big ones are the losing streaks and lack of respect for money. Losing streaks are like nothing you can understand until you've been a professional poker player. Imagine if you went to work, performed flawlessly, far better than all of your coworkers, and instead of getting paid your bank account got debited and your boss told you "you really sucked today". Then that happens every day for a month. Humans (and especially poker players, who study probabilistic decision making as a hobby) are conditioned through life to believe outcomes are a direct result of actions. Do a good job at something and work hard at it, you succeed. Do a bad job at something and slack off, you fail. While this is true in poker in the long run, the long run can be a long time. I broke even for a year at one point, and that's at cash games. Meanwhile donkeys without the slightest clue what they were doing were lucking ass backward into multimillion-dollar tournament prizes. You can't even fathom what this does to you emotionally until you've lived through it. It engenders self-doubt, which gets you off your game, which probably makes you play worse, which you know you're doing but aren't sure exactly how, or what to do about it, which in turn prolongs the losing streak. There is no end to it. The lack of respect for money is universal in a world where thousands of dollars change hands in minutes. It's impossible to think "I shouldn't buy that Lexus I've had my eye on" when you just made enough to do it in the last 4 hours. Everytime I played a pot I was risking far more than I was playing credit card roulette for dinner for 4 at Craftsteak. (BTW, my luck at credit card roulette is legendary. If my luck at poker had been half that good I'd have won the WSOP.)
  • tsotha 16y ago
    This comment brings back memories. I was pretty serious for a decade or so, and I remember how long the losing streaks can be ("Oh my God. This is my first set in a week and you just cracked it with a one-outer on the river.") I had a girlfriend for most of that time who went pro. She was pretty good, too, but she had that lack of respect for money in spades (heh). She'd spend a whole day grinding out $3000 in the $40-80 game and then lose $20,000 in an hour at the Pai Gow table. One day she decided to skip the Pai Gow and went to the mall instead. Bought all kinds of designer clothes and perfumes and electronic gadgets. She practically filled up the car. When she came home there was this shocked look on her face. I asked her what the problem was and she said "Look at all the stuff you can buy for only $5000! I'm so used to using money as ammunition I forgot you can trade it for stuff."