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He really is quite abusive. It's remarkable to me that the Linux kernel ecosystem is thriving with this kind of leader.

by et2o 8y ago

sebazzz 8y ago
From Linus we apparently accept it, but not from any other $RANDOM developer.
steve19 8y ago
Reading the full thread it seems everyone walks in eggshells around him, speaking so sweetly to him while he insults them and their work.
- elygre 8y ago
  Yes, I agree. The responses were actually more disturbing than the initial outburst. It sounded very much like what I expect from an abusive relationship.
  - superice 8y ago
    What I find interesting is that they must at some level realize that it does not work: Torvalds is not going to respect you more, or cut you some slack because you are incredibly polite and careful in your wording. It strikes me as rather dumb. If the entire conversation can be reworded as 'Hey I think it's okay to break the machine in such-and-such a case' - 'No, I fart in your general direction, this fucks up my standards for quality software' - 'Okay', why are both Alexander and Kees trying to be so incredibly polite? It's just a waste of time.
- naibafo 8y ago
  I don't get that feeling at all. The thing that stands out to me is how they are constantly mentioning something along the lines of "we discussed this with him/her on the maliing list", "they said it was okay", ... When Linus from first to last email makes it clear that he does not want any BUG() and discussion about it is moot. Reminds me of breaking rules as a child and then justifying it by saying that a friends mother said it was okay, or asking my dad about something my mom had already forbidden... I can see how that is frustrating from his point, when he made it clear multiple times and is basically reiterating it that whole thread, until in the one of them even thinks of a solution.
bdcravens 8y ago
Puzzling to me is the number of people who extoll, and even strive to emulate, those qualities in Steve Jobs.
waivek 8y ago
Yes, he should be more polite like Guido Van Rossum to ensure longevity.
dmm 8y ago
Lots of leaders are abusive. Steve Jobs would go into meetings and shout at people calling them "fucking dickless assholes". Did you find it similarly remarkable that Apple thrived under Jobs? What's the difference? I can think of two things: 1. Linus conducts his business on the public LKML so it's much more visible. 2. Technical people are expected to shut up and be polite.
fruzz 8y ago
It thrives, but with a subset of the people it could have. I'm reminded of both the low proportion of women (commits on the Linux kernel are 94-96% men) and kernel developer's like Sarah Sharpe citing the toxic culture for leaving. Sarah Sharpe's explanation for leaving: http://sage.thesharps.us/2015/10/05/closing-a-door/ http://sage.thesharps.us/2015/10/05/closing-a-door/ Gender analysis of Linux kernel technical contributions: https://blog.bitergia.com/2016/10/11/gender-diversity-analysis-of-the-linux-kernel-technical-contributions/ https://blog.bitergia.com/2016/10/11/gender-diversity-analys... It's so unfortunate that he continues to be so abusive, inspiring a toxic culture with it, and that he has been completely unwilling to change. This community could have so many more bright minds than it does.

He really is quite abusive. It's remarkable to me that the Linux kernel ecosystem is thriving with this kind of leader.

by et2o 8y ago

He really is quite abusive. It's remarkable to me that the Linux kernel ecosystem is thriving with this kind of leader.

sebazzz 8y ago

From Linus we apparently accept it, but not from any other $RANDOM developer.

steve19 8y ago

Reading the full thread it seems everyone walks in eggshells around him, speaking so sweetly to him while he insults them and their work.

elygre 8y ago
Yes, I agree. The responses were actually more disturbing than the initial outburst. It sounded very much like what I expect from an abusive relationship.
- superice 8y ago
  What I find interesting is that they must at some level realize that it does not work: Torvalds is not going to respect you more, or cut you some slack because you are incredibly polite and careful in your wording. It strikes me as rather dumb. If the entire conversation can be reworded as 'Hey I think it's okay to break the machine in such-and-such a case' - 'No, I fart in your general direction, this fucks up my standards for quality software' - 'Okay', why are both Alexander and Kees trying to be so incredibly polite? It's just a waste of time.
naibafo 8y ago
I don't get that feeling at all. The thing that stands out to me is how they are constantly mentioning something along the lines of "we discussed this with him/her on the maliing list", "they said it was okay", ... When Linus from first to last email makes it clear that he does not want any BUG() and discussion about it is moot. Reminds me of breaking rules as a child and then justifying it by saying that a friends mother said it was okay, or asking my dad about something my mom had already forbidden... I can see how that is frustrating from his point, when he made it clear multiple times and is basically reiterating it that whole thread, until in the one of them even thinks of a solution.

bdcravens 8y ago

Puzzling to me is the number of people who extoll, and even strive to emulate, those qualities in Steve Jobs.

waivek 8y ago

Yes, he should be more polite like Guido Van Rossum to ensure longevity.

dmm 8y ago

Lots of leaders are abusive. Steve Jobs would go into meetings and shout at people calling them "fucking dickless assholes". Did you find it similarly remarkable that Apple thrived under Jobs? What's the difference? I can think of two things: 1. Linus conducts his business on the public LKML so it's much more visible. 2. Technical people are expected to shut up and be polite.

fruzz 8y ago

It thrives, but with a subset of the people it could have. I'm reminded of both the low proportion of women (commits on the Linux kernel are 94-96% men) and kernel developer's like Sarah Sharpe citing the toxic culture for leaving. Sarah Sharpe's explanation for leaving: http://sage.thesharps.us/2015/10/05/closing-a-door/ http://sage.thesharps.us/2015/10/05/closing-a-door/ Gender analysis of Linux kernel technical contributions: https://blog.bitergia.com/2016/10/11/gender-diversity-analysis-of-the-linux-kernel-technical-contributions/ https://blog.bitergia.com/2016/10/11/gender-diversity-analys... It's so unfortunate that he continues to be so abusive, inspiring a toxic culture with it, and that he has been completely unwilling to change. This community could have so many more bright minds than it does.