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Considering reduction of pesticide use and exposure is one of the main objectives of the organic movement, which has been developing for over 60 years now - it

Considering reduction of pesticide use and exposure is one of the main objectives of the organic movement, which has been developing for over 60 years now - it would be a hopeless situation if it resulted in "just as much, if not more, pesticides". Do you have any substantial sources for such a tragic claim? For example here[1] is an EU funded meta-review from 2014 which finds: " the frequency of occurrence of pesticide residues was found to be four times higher in conventional crops, which also contained significantly higher concentrations of the toxic metal Cd. " I personally have some faith that professional scrutiny involved in developing organic standards, selects the permissible pesticides with some insight and success. Not without possibility of some errors - to which the national and international trading standards are also susceptible, however the organic standards are a refined subset of those protections. [1] https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/british-journal-of-nutrition/article/higher-antioxidant-and-lower-cadmium-concentrations-and-lower-incidence-of-pesticide-residues-in-organically-grown-crops-a-systematic-literature-review-and-metaanalyses/33F09637EAE6C4ED119E0C4BFFE2D5B1 https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/british-journal-of-n...

gruez 8y ago
>Considering reduction of pesticide use and exposure is one of the main objectives of the organic movement why does that matter when the still spray as much pesticides you want and still call it "organic"? call it the "pesticide free movement" or something, but don't conflate it with "organic", which is essentially a meaningless marketing term at this point, at least when it comes to food safety.
- beenBoutIT 8y ago
  Not to mention fungicides and herbicides, which are also permitted with "organic" farming. https://tilth.org/app/uploads/2014/12/can-i-use-this-pesticide.pdf https://tilth.org/app/uploads/2014/12/can-i-use-this-pestici... "Hydrogen peroxide and potassium bicarbonate, two familiar substances that are relatively new as fungicides, are also permitted." "Various natural substances have been tried as herbicides with mixed success. Clove oil is a botanical that is effective."
  - strainer 8y ago
    Right, those are ubiquitous chemicals and compounds with a relatively low uncertainty to their ecological and biological impacts. Unlike for example - synthetically augmented glyphosate compounds, and other contentious products which organic standards takes a precautionary stance towards.
- strainer 8y ago
  "they still spray as much pesticides you want" Organic labelled produce cant, it is subject to greater restrictions of pesticide use than general international farming regulations. Honestly, if you dont acknowledge this very basic reality of organic certification then your arguments against it are besides reason. Organic certification is not a "meaningless marketing term" like for example "family farm" can be. It means the farm has been advised and reviewed to follow restrictions on pesticide, fertilizer use and other practices which are applied in addition to regional and national farming regulations.
  - dragonwriter 8y ago
    > Organic labelled produce cant, it is subject to greater restrictions of pesticide use than general international farming regulations Kinds, yes, which often results in greater and more environmentally harmful quantities. And the kinds are not based on any scientific evaluation of safety or health, but on what amounts to religious preference. Organic certification is like kosher or halal certification.
    - strainer 8y ago
      > which often results in greater and more environmentally harmful quantities. Do you have any substantial references of such results happening "often" or is that idea just gathered from anecdotes and casual articles ?
      - tedunangst 8y ago
        Without knowing more, it seems a logical deduction. If the "organic" pesticides were more effective than the "chemical" pesticides, farmers would always choose to use them. If the alternatives aren't as effective, then you need to spray more for the same result.
        strainer 8y ago
        So this then claim stems not from knowledge but from a "seemingly logical deduction". It is clear that there is no actual substance to this idea that "organic farms often use more pesticides" - even the notion is false that "more pesticides" is a meaningful concept as it alludes only to pesticide weight or mass and ignores all qualities of the substances involved - in the accompanying "logical deduction" - such as ecological and biological impact. Organic standards are not so simply drawn as to focus on the weight or mass or price of pesticides - they concern the ecological impact and risk of agricultural materials and practices.

gruez 8y ago

>Considering reduction of pesticide use and exposure is one of the main objectives of the organic movement why does that matter when the still spray as much pesticides you want and still call it "organic"? call it the "pesticide free movement" or something, but don't conflate it with "organic", which is essentially a meaningless marketing term at this point, at least when it comes to food safety.

beenBoutIT 8y ago
Not to mention fungicides and herbicides, which are also permitted with "organic" farming. https://tilth.org/app/uploads/2014/12/can-i-use-this-pesticide.pdf https://tilth.org/app/uploads/2014/12/can-i-use-this-pestici... "Hydrogen peroxide and potassium bicarbonate, two familiar substances that are relatively new as fungicides, are also permitted." "Various natural substances have been tried as herbicides with mixed success. Clove oil is a botanical that is effective."
- strainer 8y ago
  Right, those are ubiquitous chemicals and compounds with a relatively low uncertainty to their ecological and biological impacts. Unlike for example - synthetically augmented glyphosate compounds, and other contentious products which organic standards takes a precautionary stance towards.
strainer 8y ago
"they still spray as much pesticides you want" Organic labelled produce cant, it is subject to greater restrictions of pesticide use than general international farming regulations. Honestly, if you dont acknowledge this very basic reality of organic certification then your arguments against it are besides reason. Organic certification is not a "meaningless marketing term" like for example "family farm" can be. It means the farm has been advised and reviewed to follow restrictions on pesticide, fertilizer use and other practices which are applied in addition to regional and national farming regulations.
- dragonwriter 8y ago
  > Organic labelled produce cant, it is subject to greater restrictions of pesticide use than general international farming regulations Kinds, yes, which often results in greater and more environmentally harmful quantities. And the kinds are not based on any scientific evaluation of safety or health, but on what amounts to religious preference. Organic certification is like kosher or halal certification.
  - strainer 8y ago
    > which often results in greater and more environmentally harmful quantities. Do you have any substantial references of such results happening "often" or is that idea just gathered from anecdotes and casual articles ?
    - tedunangst 8y ago
      Without knowing more, it seems a logical deduction. If the "organic" pesticides were more effective than the "chemical" pesticides, farmers would always choose to use them. If the alternatives aren't as effective, then you need to spray more for the same result.
      - strainer 8y ago
        So this then claim stems not from knowledge but from a "seemingly logical deduction". It is clear that there is no actual substance to this idea that "organic farms often use more pesticides" - even the notion is false that "more pesticides" is a meaningful concept as it alludes only to pesticide weight or mass and ignores all qualities of the substances involved - in the accompanying "logical deduction" - such as ecological and biological impact. Organic standards are not so simply drawn as to focus on the weight or mass or price of pesticides - they concern the ecological impact and risk of agricultural materials and practices.