5 ms·

From an earlier NYT piece: > According to three of the officials, one was shot in front of his colleagues in the courtyard of a government building — a message

by 07d046 8y ago

From an earlier NYT piece: > According to three of the officials, one was shot in front of his colleagues in the courtyard of a government building — a message to others who might have been working for the C.I.A. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/20/world/asia/china-cia-spies-espionage.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/20/world/asia/china-cia-spie...

onetimemanytime 8y ago
USA has the death penalty for treason too. Now you can argue back and forth (US wants China to eventually be democratic so I'm helping China by spying for CIA...etc) but they essentially betrayed their country. Chinese efficiency: Torture them till they tell want they know and then teach others a lesson along the way too. https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2381 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2381 Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.
- garmaine 8y ago
  Missing the point. There's something to be said about treating every human with dignity, even the traitors.
  - onetimemanytime 8y ago
    I am sure they got a trial, albeit a 2 minute one, appeals included. Even in China looks like they improved from "Hanged, drawn and quartered," but let's be honest, things are different over there. Or we may want to ask about being treated with dignity those that are in Guantanamo Bay. Bottom line, one that betrays his country should know the--locally decided--risks. In Russia they kill you even after "forgiving" you (see last case in UK)
    - garmaine 8y ago
      People are people, over there or over here or anywhere.
- IIAOPSW 8y ago
  Death penalty is a bit different from summary execution.
  - gammateam 8y ago
    just in time and expense Chinese intelligence executed 30 operatives? Good thing we have a decentralized unaccountable police force larger than ALL national armies to carry out summary executions to the tune of 1,000 citizens per year and save us money.
    - IIAOPSW 8y ago
      >Good thing we have a decentralized unaccountable police force larger than ALL national armies to carry out summary executions to the tune of 1,000 citizens per year I'm not in favor of that either. And its still apples to oranges. A police shooting in the moment is much different from a planned and televised execution.
    - Rapzid 8y ago
      I think you may have a hard time convincing people that the difference between due process and summary executions is just in time and expenses.
      - 68c12c16 8y ago
        It depends on one's perspective... In terms of time and money, indeed, the difference is as what you said... But in terms of information flow, the difference would be quite huge...
- 07d046 8y ago
  Technically, this wouldn't be treason according to the US definition, because treason is only possible in the context of a declared enemy of the USA (i.e., war). Also, there is a judicial process in the USA, not a summary execution. Also, the pregnant wives of traitors aren't executed in the USA.
  - throwawayt1894 8y ago
    Yeah, only their children: https://www.aclu.org/video/aclu-ccr-lawsuit-american-boy-killed-us-drone-strike https://www.aclu.org/video/aclu-ccr-lawsuit-american-boy-kil...
    - 07d046 8y ago
      This whataboutism is not helpful. Unless you think the boy was deliberately targeted to be killed, surely you can understand that being killed in a drone strike targeting another is very different to being deliberately shot to death.
      - latch 8y ago
        It's a discussion directly comparing how two countries act towards the same crime. Don't participate in the thread if you don't find whataboutism helpful? I don't have the strong moral reservations many have against drone strikes. Tactically advantageous, cheaper, no pilot at risk. Pretty compelling. But in their own way, they're terrifying specifically for the reason you mention: they are less discriminating. You can think delibery shooting is much worse. And I can see how someone would feel that way. But I think a reasonable person ought to be able to understand how another reasonable person might see things differently. https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2012/09/every-person-is-afraid-of-the-drones-the-strikes-effect-on-life-in-pakistan/262814/ https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2012/09/ev...
  - latch 8y ago
    You're right, but it's worth remembering that the distinction appears to be eroding. I was going to mention the same case that my sibling, throwawayt1894, mentioned. Drone strikes against US citizens in a country not a war with the US is at least worth thinking about. I can generally buy the ends-justify-the-means argument (or at least consider it), but the press secretary's response to this always rubbed me the wrong way: 'I would suggest that you should have a far more responsible father...'
- jonhendry18 8y ago
  The last execution of an American for treason was in 1862. Martin James Monti, United States Army Air Forces pilot, convicted of treason for defecting to the Waffen SS in 1944. He was paroled in 1960. Robert Henry Best, convicted of treason on April 16, 1948 and served a life sentence. (Which turned out to be 4 years. Died in 1952 in prison of a cerebral hemorrhage.) Iva Toguri D'Aquino, who is frequently identified by the name "Tokyo Rose", convicted 1949. Subsequently, pardoned by President Gerald Ford. (She was fined $10,000 and given a 10-year prison sentence. Paroled after 6.) Mildred Gillars, also known as "Axis Sally", convicted of treason on March 8, 1949; served 12 years of a 10- to 30-year prison sentence. Tomoya Kawakita, sentenced to death for treason in 1952, but eventually released by President John F. Kennedy to be deported to Japan. (In 1953, Eisenhower commuted sentence to $10,000 fine and life imprisonment. Kennedy ordered him released in 1963 on condition that he leave the US and not return.) Robert Hanssen, a high-ranking FBI agent who was a spy for Russia, is spending several life sentences in the pokey but wasn't convicted of treason.
  - mikec3010 8y ago
    What about the Rosenbergs?
    - omni 8y ago
      Quick Google suggests they were convicted for espionage (under the Espionage Act), not treason. Though it's really unclear to me why espionage against your own country and for another would not qualify as treason. edit: Sibling commenter had a view on it: "Technically, this wouldn't be treason according to the US definition, because treason is only possible in the context of a declared enemy of the USA (i.e., war)."
      - jandrese 8y ago
        So part of the reason is that since the end of WWII we have not technically been "at war" because that requires Congressional approval and politics gets involved.

by 07d046 8y ago

onetimemanytime 8y ago

USA has the death penalty for treason too. Now you can argue back and forth (US wants China to eventually be democratic so I'm helping China by spying for CIA...etc) but they essentially betrayed their country. Chinese efficiency: Torture them till they tell want they know and then teach others a lesson along the way too. https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2381 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2381 Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.

garmaine 8y ago
Missing the point. There's something to be said about treating every human with dignity, even the traitors.
- onetimemanytime 8y ago
  I am sure they got a trial, albeit a 2 minute one, appeals included. Even in China looks like they improved from "Hanged, drawn and quartered," but let's be honest, things are different over there. Or we may want to ask about being treated with dignity those that are in Guantanamo Bay. Bottom line, one that betrays his country should know the--locally decided--risks. In Russia they kill you even after "forgiving" you (see last case in UK)
  - garmaine 8y ago
    People are people, over there or over here or anywhere.
IIAOPSW 8y ago
Death penalty is a bit different from summary execution.
- gammateam 8y ago
  just in time and expense Chinese intelligence executed 30 operatives? Good thing we have a decentralized unaccountable police force larger than ALL national armies to carry out summary executions to the tune of 1,000 citizens per year and save us money.
  - IIAOPSW 8y ago
    >Good thing we have a decentralized unaccountable police force larger than ALL national armies to carry out summary executions to the tune of 1,000 citizens per year I'm not in favor of that either. And its still apples to oranges. A police shooting in the moment is much different from a planned and televised execution.
  - Rapzid 8y ago
    I think you may have a hard time convincing people that the difference between due process and summary executions is just in time and expenses.
    - 68c12c16 8y ago
      It depends on one's perspective... In terms of time and money, indeed, the difference is as what you said... But in terms of information flow, the difference would be quite huge...
07d046 8y ago
Technically, this wouldn't be treason according to the US definition, because treason is only possible in the context of a declared enemy of the USA (i.e., war). Also, there is a judicial process in the USA, not a summary execution. Also, the pregnant wives of traitors aren't executed in the USA.
- throwawayt1894 8y ago
  Yeah, only their children: https://www.aclu.org/video/aclu-ccr-lawsuit-american-boy-killed-us-drone-strike https://www.aclu.org/video/aclu-ccr-lawsuit-american-boy-kil...
  - 07d046 8y ago
    This whataboutism is not helpful. Unless you think the boy was deliberately targeted to be killed, surely you can understand that being killed in a drone strike targeting another is very different to being deliberately shot to death.
    - latch 8y ago
      It's a discussion directly comparing how two countries act towards the same crime. Don't participate in the thread if you don't find whataboutism helpful? I don't have the strong moral reservations many have against drone strikes. Tactically advantageous, cheaper, no pilot at risk. Pretty compelling. But in their own way, they're terrifying specifically for the reason you mention: they are less discriminating. You can think delibery shooting is much worse. And I can see how someone would feel that way. But I think a reasonable person ought to be able to understand how another reasonable person might see things differently. https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2012/09/every-person-is-afraid-of-the-drones-the-strikes-effect-on-life-in-pakistan/262814/ https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2012/09/ev...
- latch 8y ago
  You're right, but it's worth remembering that the distinction appears to be eroding. I was going to mention the same case that my sibling, throwawayt1894, mentioned. Drone strikes against US citizens in a country not a war with the US is at least worth thinking about. I can generally buy the ends-justify-the-means argument (or at least consider it), but the press secretary's response to this always rubbed me the wrong way: 'I would suggest that you should have a far more responsible father...'
jonhendry18 8y ago
The last execution of an American for treason was in 1862. Martin James Monti, United States Army Air Forces pilot, convicted of treason for defecting to the Waffen SS in 1944. He was paroled in 1960. Robert Henry Best, convicted of treason on April 16, 1948 and served a life sentence. (Which turned out to be 4 years. Died in 1952 in prison of a cerebral hemorrhage.) Iva Toguri D'Aquino, who is frequently identified by the name "Tokyo Rose", convicted 1949. Subsequently, pardoned by President Gerald Ford. (She was fined $10,000 and given a 10-year prison sentence. Paroled after 6.) Mildred Gillars, also known as "Axis Sally", convicted of treason on March 8, 1949; served 12 years of a 10- to 30-year prison sentence. Tomoya Kawakita, sentenced to death for treason in 1952, but eventually released by President John F. Kennedy to be deported to Japan. (In 1953, Eisenhower commuted sentence to $10,000 fine and life imprisonment. Kennedy ordered him released in 1963 on condition that he leave the US and not return.) Robert Hanssen, a high-ranking FBI agent who was a spy for Russia, is spending several life sentences in the pokey but wasn't convicted of treason.
- mikec3010 8y ago
  What about the Rosenbergs?
  - omni 8y ago
    Quick Google suggests they were convicted for espionage (under the Espionage Act), not treason. Though it's really unclear to me why espionage against your own country and for another would not qualify as treason. edit: Sibling commenter had a view on it: "Technically, this wouldn't be treason according to the US definition, because treason is only possible in the context of a declared enemy of the USA (i.e., war)."
    - jandrese 8y ago
      So part of the reason is that since the end of WWII we have not technically been "at war" because that requires Congressional approval and politics gets involved.