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Here in Kansas City, 87% of our electricity comes from coal. 11% from nuclear. Wind makes up the lion's share of the remaining 2%. One of the Sierra Club's memb

by ax0n 16y ago

Here in Kansas City, 87% of our electricity comes from coal. 11% from nuclear. Wind makes up the lion's share of the remaining 2%. One of the Sierra Club's members had his soul crushed when a friend of mine pointed out that he was, in fact, piloting a coal-powered car. That's not to say the tech isn't cool. But it's not any more sustainable than a good high-efficiency gasoline or diesel-only car.

ugh 16y ago
But it's not any more sustainable than a good high-efficiency gasoline or diesel-only car. It’s at the moment not any better or even worse than the best gas or diesel cars but I do think that it’s more sustainable. Cars with internal combustion engines will always have the same CO2 emissions. The day they leave the factory and twenty years from now. Electric cars are independent of any specific energy source and as a consequence have the CO2 emissions of the energy source they use. They are mostly coal or oil powered at the moment but it’s very much possible to turn them into nuclear powered cars in the future. That’s why electric cars have the potential to be great.
- kijinbear 16y ago
  This is really cool. For example, Canada's primary source of power is hydroelectricity (over 60%). Electric cars in large parts of Canada would be literally running on water!
  - ax0n 16y ago
    For the most part, that's true. It's mostly localized. Seattle, for example, gets nearly 89% of its electricity from hydro, and another 9% or so from nuclear and wind. In places like that, pure electrics start to make a lot of sense. There's still the issue with how the batteries are built, shipped and disposed of, most of which would make many green consumers turn pale with discontent.
pyre 16y ago
The difference being that if everyone was driving an electric car, we the transition from coal to nuclear (or whatever) is just a 'simple' infrastructure change (similar to providing a bugfix to a library that many applications dynamically link against, rather than requiring app to need a recompile due to static linking).
NickM 16y ago
It's a common fallacy that electric cars are just "moving the emission source" and therefore no better than gasoline cars. However, even if 100% of the electricity is generated from coal, an EV is actually much more environmentally friendly than any gasoline-powered car. It all comes down to efficiency numbers. Power plants and electric motors are just massively more efficient than gasoline engines, and it's much easier to scrub the emissions on one pipe than many. Of course, they also make it easier to transition to renewable sources (replacing one power plant vs. replacing many cars), but that's just icing on the cake.
- hugh3 16y ago
  Also, if you don't care too much about the CO2 side of things (which I don't) then the world has a lot more coal than it has oil.
- ax0n 16y ago
  How efficient is the transmission of electricity from generation to end point? How efficient is the charging circuitry? The motors? How many kilowatts need to be burned in a coal plant to put a kilowatt of energy to the pavement in an EV? I assure you, EVs themselves may be very efficient, but the archaic technology that 70% of the US (via coal/NG/oil smoke-and-fire generation) is using to generate and transfer electricity is not.
  - NickM 16y ago
    If you're interested, there's been plenty of research done on the matter. Search for "well to wheel" studies. You can find a good number of them online if you look, and electric cars beat the pants off of everything else.
jbooth 16y ago
Loose coupling. If we make the electric vehicle part work, then we can drop in whatever kind of electricity we want behind it. Which is likely to be increasingly non-coal going forwards.

by ax0n 16y ago

ugh 16y ago

But it's not any more sustainable than a good high-efficiency gasoline or diesel-only car. It’s at the moment not any better or even worse than the best gas or diesel cars but I do think that it’s more sustainable. Cars with internal combustion engines will always have the same CO2 emissions. The day they leave the factory and twenty years from now. Electric cars are independent of any specific energy source and as a consequence have the CO2 emissions of the energy source they use. They are mostly coal or oil powered at the moment but it’s very much possible to turn them into nuclear powered cars in the future. That’s why electric cars have the potential to be great.

kijinbear 16y ago
This is really cool. For example, Canada's primary source of power is hydroelectricity (over 60%). Electric cars in large parts of Canada would be literally running on water!
- ax0n 16y ago
  For the most part, that's true. It's mostly localized. Seattle, for example, gets nearly 89% of its electricity from hydro, and another 9% or so from nuclear and wind. In places like that, pure electrics start to make a lot of sense. There's still the issue with how the batteries are built, shipped and disposed of, most of which would make many green consumers turn pale with discontent.

pyre 16y ago

The difference being that if everyone was driving an electric car, we the transition from coal to nuclear (or whatever) is just a 'simple' infrastructure change (similar to providing a bugfix to a library that many applications dynamically link against, rather than requiring app to need a recompile due to static linking).

NickM 16y ago

It's a common fallacy that electric cars are just "moving the emission source" and therefore no better than gasoline cars. However, even if 100% of the electricity is generated from coal, an EV is actually much more environmentally friendly than any gasoline-powered car. It all comes down to efficiency numbers. Power plants and electric motors are just massively more efficient than gasoline engines, and it's much easier to scrub the emissions on one pipe than many. Of course, they also make it easier to transition to renewable sources (replacing one power plant vs. replacing many cars), but that's just icing on the cake.

hugh3 16y ago
Also, if you don't care too much about the CO2 side of things (which I don't) then the world has a lot more coal than it has oil.
ax0n 16y ago
How efficient is the transmission of electricity from generation to end point? How efficient is the charging circuitry? The motors? How many kilowatts need to be burned in a coal plant to put a kilowatt of energy to the pavement in an EV? I assure you, EVs themselves may be very efficient, but the archaic technology that 70% of the US (via coal/NG/oil smoke-and-fire generation) is using to generate and transfer electricity is not.
- NickM 16y ago
  If you're interested, there's been plenty of research done on the matter. Search for "well to wheel" studies. You can find a good number of them online if you look, and electric cars beat the pants off of everything else.

jbooth 16y ago

Loose coupling. If we make the electric vehicle part work, then we can drop in whatever kind of electricity we want behind it. Which is likely to be increasingly non-coal going forwards.