16 ms·

Botched CIA Communications System Helped Blow Cover of Chinese Agents

277 points by mkeeter 8y ago

nyolfen 8y ago
"This didn't make it into the piece, but here's how the Chinese treated people working with the CIA: According to one source, one asset working at a state tech institutes, and his pregnant wife, were executed live on closed circuit TV in front of the staff." https://twitter.com/zachsdorfman/status/1029861843521523712 https://twitter.com/zachsdorfman/status/1029861843521523712
- King-Aaron 8y ago
  Obviously a revelation on Twitter about a secretive organisation's workings should always be taken with a grain of salt. However these sorts of reports aren't too uncommon, and it surprises me how there's a lot of pro-china commentators in communities such as HN who seem to glaze over these sorts of things and still aggressively promote the "Chinese way of doing things" is superior to whatever western value or opinion is the discussion point of the day.
  - nyolfen 8y ago
    fwiw the tweet is by the author of the linked article
  - 68c12c16 8y ago
    I think what we call the skill of "analysis" is to divide an abstract object into a set of its containing elements, and then differentiate those elements and treat each element for its own different case. China is one such abstract object...It's never about pro-china or anti-china -- after all it is a society of 1 billion individuals who are all differentiable from each other (and we have to differentiate a random chinese people from their government)...if we find a certain aspect of China appealing and potentially benecial to our own society, then why not just "like" that aspect and learn from them? In the last few decades of the 5th century BC, Sparta and Athens fought a war with each other, which Athens had lost...but this did not prevent Plato (who was an Athenian) from praising certain aspects of Spartan society.
    - BurritoAlPastor 8y ago
      And also didn't prevent us (a couple thousand years later) from lumping them all together as "ancient Greece". Distance from the components, in time or space, lets us paint the set as homogeneous.
      - 68c12c16 8y ago
        I was just doing a categorical mapping, which you might call it analogy... How is that "lumping" relevant to the current discussion initiated by King-Aaron?
    - cjhanks 8y ago
      And then didn't he die from ingesting hemlock?
      - alasdair_ 8y ago
        >And then didn't he die from ingesting hemlock? No. He probably died in his sleep. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plato#Death https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plato#Death You're probably thinking of Socrates, who deliberately killed himself by eating hemlock.
    - King-Aaron 8y ago
      I certainly don't disagree. I do think that your point is possibly lost on a lot of people that are drawing these sorts of comparisons though...
      - 68c12c16 8y ago
        sorry...analogy quite often can cause confusions...I will try to make more intuitive and relevant ones in the future... It's just that the current situation between China and the U.S. bears a lot of similarities as that between Peloponnesian League (led by Sparta) and Athenian Empire during the Peloponnesian War. At the time, Sparta was an oligarchic society and Athens was a democratic one. Thucydides considered the cause of the war was because Sparta was worried about the rise of Athens could threaten its own way of life, and Athens wanted to spread democracy to other city states. There seemed to be no intrinsic conflict between the two states...the problem was that they did not trust each other, only because they were different. I personally feel this situation is quite like the current situation between US and China...There is no intrinsic conflict; they just don't trust each other (sometime even a bit phobic of each other), only because they are different...
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - toomanybeersies 8y ago
    I agree that I see a lot of Chinese apologism in the form of "this is the Chinese way" here. I wouldn't say that the comments are necessarily pro-China though, but rather just explaining that it is a different culture and things are done in a different way. I do think it's a bullshit cop out though. I think that it's ignorant at best and racist at worst when people make comments here along the lines of "Chinese people like authoritarian societies and couldn't function in a democracy", usually justified by saying that China has been an authoritarian society since day 0. Europe, until recently, was a continent ruled by autocrats (whether in the form of kings, presidents, or emperors). There are plenty of Chinese democracy activists, and I'm yet to meet a Chinese immigrant who has any love for the CCP and the Chinese government.
    - Jarwain 8y ago
      Would an immigrant Be an immigrant if they held love for the CCP and the Chinese Government?
      - bacon_waffle 8y ago
        There are a lot of reasons that people move to different countries, aside from feelings about the government they're moving away from.
      - toomanybeersies 8y ago
        I migrated from New Zealand to Australia, yet I like the current ruling coalition and government in New Zealand and dislike the Australian ruling coalition and government. There are reasons to migrate beyond politics.
      - 07d046 8y ago
        There's been a lot of discussion recently about Chinese influence or interference in Australia, and much of that is through Chinese people living in Australia. For example, Chau Chak Wing is a Chinese-Australian billionaire with ties to the Chinese Communist Party, is one of Australia's top political donors, and is the unindicted co-conspirator in a bribery case involving the former president of the UN general assembly. https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/political-donor-chau-chak-wing-behind-un-bribe-scandal-parliament-told-20180522-p4zgs5.html https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/political-donor-chau... Edit: In today's news, more controversy around another Chinese billionaire with permanent residence in Australia and how he's getting involved in Australian politics for the benefit of the CCP https://www.smh.com.au/politics/western-australia/wyatt-s-all-expenses-paid-china-trip-linked-to-controversial-billionaire-communist-regime-20180815-p4zxn2.html https://www.smh.com.au/politics/western-australia/wyatt-s-al...
  - TangoTrotFox 8y ago
    Out of curiosity, how do you think traitors providing potentially critical intelligence to one of the most dangerous agencies of a powerful and aggressive unfriendly foreign power should be treated, when there is literally zero doubt as to their guilt? And to be clear, I'm not condoning this action but I'm also not so quick condemn it. I'm genuinely uncertain if I somehow were the Chinese government what my decision would be, but I think you are quite certain -- and it's sparked my curiosity.
    - throwawayt1894 8y ago
      I'm just surprised they didn't try to make them double agents or at least feed them false information. It seems like a rash judgement to suddenly eliminate 30+ people who you know are spies.
      - computerfriend 8y ago
        There's an incentive to do it all at once, or as rapidly as possible. If you try to recruit them, you run the risk of them reporting this and suddenly the other 29 spies are exfiltrated.
      - yourapostasy 8y ago
        > It seems like a rash judgement to suddenly eliminate 30+ people who you know are spies. It isn't a rash judgement if the CCP is so confident of their counter-intelligence program, that they evaluate the effort of neutralizing with disinfo or turning those 30+ is not worth their trouble and informational value. Considering the scale and depth of surveillance they employ within China, and continued heavy investment into more, I wouldn't want to off-hand rule out that possibility.
    - King-Aaron 8y ago
      > but I think you are quite certain Quite the contrary, not sure how this conclusion was drawn. I just feel that "execution of them and their family broadcast to the entire staff" isn't really a value that is typically held in high esteem.
    - 8y ago
  - Rapzid 8y ago
    If you study the grammar on a lot of these posts, all over the internet even, you may come to the conclusion that the posters are government plants or Chinese CCP zealots. I wouldn't rule out a massive propoganda campaign; HN, mainstream news article comments, suspicious Quora "questions" about China with manipulative "answers", Confucius Institutes!..
    - 68c12c16 8y ago
      It would be nice if someone could come up with an algorithm that automatically tell which posts are astroturfing, just like fakespot.com But apparently this would be much more difficult than the algorithm used by fakespot, and seem to be less domain specific... But at least, perhaps, we could do some information clustering, as comments written by independent individuals are more likely to have greater variances -- and quite often, difference is what makes an individual human so valuable...
      - JetSpiegel 8y ago
        Call it Pravda. Musk is game for it.
    - toomanybeersies 8y ago
      Not even just comments on news articles. I've read plenty of news articles that view China and their foreign policy with suspiciously rose tinted glasses. Especially around the One Belt One Road initiative.
  - jmartrican 8y ago
    I try to be careful and separate 'Chinese' from 'China's Communist Party'.
  - mikec3010 8y ago
    Yeah it's barbaric what the Chinese do to spies. Next thing you know they'll be waterboarding prisoners or holding people without trial for a decade. Good thing we're superior westerners, huh?
    - nyolfen 8y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism
  - throw2016 8y ago
    Most of the comments are not pro China but highlight the brazen hypocrisy of getting worked out about China in the face of all encompassing surveillance currently run by the NSA, GCHQ and Google, Facebook and others which is a far bigger and ongoing threat to democracy and citizens here. China's actions are limited to China. There is hardly any activism against the invasive surveillance of SV companies or protests against the NSA. This forum itself has its fair share of apologists for surveillance capitalism. So where are the protests in front of Google and Facebooks campuses and in Washington? So if people don't care about these issues at home how can they care about them in China? This is simply not credible or serious. China's actions don't impact people here, your governments and companies here do. In the absence of any mainstream activism, just singling out China for outrage and anger is duplicitous and comes across as motivated more by politics than any genuine concern for the issues or people impacted. And using human rights for cheap points ultimately trivializes it and risks bad actors who have no interest in human rights pushing their own agenda. So better for the Chinese to fix their country, there are 1.3 billion of them, and for us to fix ours.
  - anotheramala 8y ago
    The Chinese have an active propaganda machine for decades which tells all Chinese people the world is out to get them. They have completely internalized that. This makes them defensive and nationalistic so they can defend whatever the state does to them.
- 07d046 8y ago
  From an earlier NYT piece: > According to three of the officials, one was shot in front of his colleagues in the courtyard of a government building — a message to others who might have been working for the C.I.A. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/20/world/asia/china-cia-spies-espionage.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/20/world/asia/china-cia-spie...
  - onetimemanytime 8y ago
    USA has the death penalty for treason too. Now you can argue back and forth (US wants China to eventually be democratic so I'm helping China by spying for CIA...etc) but they essentially betrayed their country. Chinese efficiency: Torture them till they tell want they know and then teach others a lesson along the way too. https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2381 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2381 Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.
    - garmaine 8y ago
      Missing the point. There's something to be said about treating every human with dignity, even the traitors.
      - onetimemanytime 8y ago
        I am sure they got a trial, albeit a 2 minute one, appeals included. Even in China looks like they improved from "Hanged, drawn and quartered," but let's be honest, things are different over there. Or we may want to ask about being treated with dignity those that are in Guantanamo Bay. Bottom line, one that betrays his country should know the--locally decided--risks. In Russia they kill you even after "forgiving" you (see last case in UK)
        8y ago
- 68c12c16 8y ago
  I think the reason why Chinese government would execute defected officials, instead of putting them in prison for life, is because historically defected officials often caused very serious losses to the chinese communist party. For instance, one of the most damaging defectors in their history was Gu Shunzhang, who led to the arrest of hundreds of their underground communists (many of those arrested were executed by the KMT government at the time). In those early days, the Chinese communist party was very weak and had to fight for its own survival. So as a result, Zhou Enlai ordered the assassination of almost Gu's entire family, as warning and revenge [1]... I think this bears a certain similarity to the rationale of that IRA members assassinated their defectors and French executed their traitors in WWII... It's just sad to see that certain traditions still remained unchanged with the Chinese government (or more specifically, their communist party) ...but at least we can see how much they hate defectors; and we can find some common root of that in all humanity... Perhaps things will change when they value human life more, which I think they will do when their individual's economic condition continues to improve...When the existence of an average life makes little difference to a society, statistically, life would be socially regarded as cheap... -- [1] https://www.nytimes.com/1991/02/03/weekinreview/the-world-15-years-after-zhou-s-death-his-image-is-larger-than-life.html https://www.nytimes.com/1991/02/03/weekinreview/the-world-15...
  - throwawayt1894 8y ago
    I don't think it has anything to do with valuing human life or not. I'm sure we both agree the US values human life, but the government is more than willing to accept the death of a 16 year old American citizen when trying to target his father during a drone strike. I'm more surprised that they would reveal their hand so suddenly. Maybe I watch too many movies, but I would think if you have exposed the entire network, then doing counter-espionage would be the smarter tactic.
    - 68c12c16 8y ago
      At the time of the drone strike, perhaps to the remote drone pilots, conceptually, the 16-year old kid was not an American citizen but merely someone who was different than they were...
- dnomad 8y ago
  This is exactly like the wild claims about "Iraqi babies being killed in incubators" [1]. It's an absurd, baseless claim but somehow it gets regularly accepted as true. At some point you would think that journalists would show even a little intelligence, a little competence, a little skepticism. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nayirah_testimony https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nayirah_testimony
solatic 8y ago
>But the CIA’s interim system contained a technical error: It connected back architecturally to the CIA’s main covert communications platform. When the compromise was suspected, the FBI and NSA both ran “penetration tests” to determine the security of the interim system. They found that cyber experts with access to the interim system could also access the broader covert communications system the agency was using to interact with its vetted sources, according to the former officials. >In the words of one of the former officials, the CIA had “fucked up the firewall” between the two systems. If you read between the lines, this raises the suspicion that there's a common underlying infrastructure which handles the communications, with management front-ends for different users which are firewalled off from each other, and the security of the system relied upon the firewall between the different front-ends to prevent users from finding out about each other. However, an attacker who compromised the "less secure" front end, could use that as a launching pad to attack the underlying communication infrastructure, and if the attacker pwned the infrastructure, then he'd have a back entrance to the "more secure" front end. If that's the case, then somebody was grossly incompetent, depending on the age of the system: if the system is old enough, then somebody running ops in the CIA is incompetent, for continuing to operate a system whose security model ("all you need is a strong enough firewall!") was obsolete; if the system is young enough, then either the original architects, or the security engineers who certified the architecture (if there were any), for proposing an architecture with an obsolete security model. Arguably, that incompetence amounts to criminal negligence, since it resulted in the deaths of US agents, and somebody should be tried for it.
- baybal2 8y ago
  How stupid it is to spend so much effort on compartmentalising their intel net in the country, but have all spies report by dialing in into the same website in a country employing few brigades worth of people reading tcpdumps 24/7? Compare that to one way coded messages over hf radio: a place for pick up of a dead drop in n days is broadcasted, then it is picked up by a man who reads it, destroys it, and gtfos from the country. In that scheme nobody in any way contacts anybody in real time other that the HQ.
  - nerdponx 8y ago
yborg 8y ago
It took 8 years for the CIA to figure out what happened?? This certainly explains why China and Russia continue to conduct cyber operations basically at the same level of intensity they have been for years - US intelligence, despite its enormous, unaccountable budget is unable to stop them or even know where they are compromised. If there is an actual hot conflict between the US and either of these nations, I shudder to think what will happen. I don't believe the US lacks in technical skill at the operational level. These failures are management and organizational failures.
- onetimemanytime 8y ago
  >>If there is an actual hot conflict between the US and either of these nations, I shudder to think what will happen. a hot conflict entirely dependent on satellites and other means of communications. The war can end right after the first shot is fired.
  - achow 8y ago
    The point that was being made is China/Russia perhaps is still not there with all their covert operation guns out and blazing. If situation does arise (hot conflict or otherwise) then one "shudders to think" what would be the implications.
    - onetimemanytime 8y ago
      That's I meant too,even in WWII communication was key, imagine today when all is computer controlled. China and Russia might be in the system already and waiting
      - hulahoof 8y ago
        I think it's pretty safe to say, while these games are always cat and mouse, that globally cyber defense is not approached with the same determination as cyber offence, and perhaps it can't be with resources in the same order. I think personally it's pretty likely that they're in our systems, and we're in theirs, for almost any major nation - ally or not. It's just MAD all over again.
jmnicolas 8y ago
It seems that the CIA is more embarrassed that their IT has been breached by the Chinese than the death of people that trusted them.
- ovi256 8y ago
  Treating the recruited agents as disposable has been the rule rather than the exception throughout the ages. The average half-life of an clandestine agent is surprisingly low, and planned for accordingly.
- waterbear 8y ago
  Another way to look at it is to consider that it’s really embarassing to suffer an extremely high cost in lives lost, over a misconfigured Group Policy Object or Windows Registry Key or /etc/hosts file. Something like that is akin to trusting cheap sheetrock/gypsum board and a couple of molly screws to support the weight of some priceless oil painting in a massive ornamental frame. To see a priceless thing destroyed, but for want of a proper wall to mount it on is insult to injury.
sanatgersappa 8y ago
they shouldn't have kicked Auggie upstairs.
jarym 8y ago
Maybe they should have used BBM/iMessage/WhatsApp - all the civilian gear governments are screaming they need backdoors into because they’re too tough to crack... Yes I say this partly in jest and also partly as a ‘why didn’t they’. BBM Enterprise over a VPN service popular with movie streamers would have actually helped them blend in... digitally speaking.
- bsimpson 8y ago
  Just because the Albuquerque Police Department can't crack <insert secure messenger here> doesn't mean the NSA can't. Interesting point about blending in, but I suspect they thought they could build a system more secure than the commercial options and/or didn't trust their security in the hands of a third party.
  - jarym 8y ago
    Security is hard. I’d take a commercial system that has years of history and that many major governments have rallied against (BES) over a home-grown system that obviously got tested in the field... and cost lives!
- repolfx 8y ago
  All those are blocked in China, no?
- DownGoat 8y ago
  An intelligence operation has different requirements. While those listed applications might hide the contents of the messages, you can still see that messages were sent/received, and that might be enough to warrant you for summary execution in China. During WW2/WW1 the British knew when air raids were coming from Germany by recognizing radio traffic patterns, and activity. The radio traffic was encrypted, and they could not understand whatever was sent, but the traffic itself created patterns that alerted them.
olivermarks 8y ago
Other Dorfman articles https://foreignpolicy.com/author/zach-dorfman/ https://foreignpolicy.com/author/zach-dorfman/ I treat any media 'story' about spooks with great suspicion, because it almost almost invariably winds up over time that there are far more layers to the onion than are revealed in these types of exposes. I wonder what 'The disaster in China has led some officials to conclude that internet-based systems, even ones that employ sophisticated encryption, can never be counted on to shield assets' is going to lead to? Some sort of new infrastructure may even already be in use...
- patrickg_zill 8y ago
  When the Russians were concerned about security, they switched back to using typewriters. Don't assume that a high tech solution would always be the answer...
mywacaday 8y ago
110% pure fantasy but could google be encouraged by the CIA to enter the Chinese market with whatever restrictions the Chinese government imposes but provide secure communication for whoever the CIA needs it for?
AKifer 8y ago
Typically chinese way of doing things, making the opponent thinking that he's invincible then striking hard and fast at the right time. That in every domain.
- jessaustin 8y ago
  What are some other examples of this typical phenomenon?
_iyig 8y ago
The CIA has a long and storied history of arrogance, incompetence, and letting down sources. The book, “Legacy of Ashes” provides an excellent readable, detailed history of the Agency since its creation, with tons of primary-source interviews and research. (The title refers to a quote by Eisenhower, who left the Presidency disappointed at the “legacy of ashes” which was all he felt the CIA accomplished during his tenure.)
gregshap 8y ago
Sounds like “fucked up the firewall” == "fucked up a WHERE clause"
evntllyCnsistnt 8y ago
Knowing how absurdly insecure any civilian consumer system is (laptop, smart phone, home assistant, self driving car), with zero day fire-and-not-a-drill-at-all advisories, pretty much every month, I don’t get how this sort of thing happens. I also fail to see how a decision like this could be made: The CIA had imported the system from its Middle East operations... To China? The degree of technical differences between those two regions is so intuitively disparate, that without having been to either, I’d still never estimate that a game plan for one would work in the other. Cell phones make sense in desert territories with good satellite coverage, and attacking, as much as operating those same cell phones makes sense too, in a volatile atmosphere. Meanwhile, in China, with world class supercomputing facilities operated at scientific research institutions, one can only safely assume that no amount of cryptography or electronic transmission is safe. Not even one-time pads. Each seems like it’s own game, with it’s own rules. What a mistake to not approach them differently. It’s like trying to steal cars from a suburban driveway at dinner time, versus a city parking garage during rush hour. A car is not simply a thing with wheels, that rolls away as soon as you can hop inside.
- pertymcpert 8y ago
  How could one time pads be broken?
  - wowzerz 8y ago
    No one really tries to break encryption, when side channel attacks can capture a message during the process of encryption. No one thinks in encrypted text. The plain text is always created and then translated over to the enciphered copy. The plain text will always exist in some way, so that a message may be proof-read before sending. Even if printed on the sceen of a secure display monitor. If an environment is stifling enough, it might be painfully obvious that someone is stepping out of line to work on carefully disclosing secrets. Obviously laws don’t matter in China, and if there’s a scent of dishonesty in the wrong context, I’m sure it wouldn’t take much find a way to watch every second of someone’s humble existence, if they’re not above executing pregnant women to send a message about what not watching your husband gets you.
- 8y ago
anonu 8y ago
This is a fascinating story. But I always think about what the motives are to reveal such information. What you read is always different than the actual... In a separate note, I'm not sure technically what the right solution is, but I imagine an encrypted stenographic message on a popular peer to peer internet service would be the best way to avoid detection. ... When the entire web is being monitored.
- wowzerz 8y ago
  It’d be best to imagine something else. Stenographers are much too busy in court, recording transcripts of proceedings as they transpire. They wouldn’t have time to help avoid detection. I think it’s probably better to use a stegosaurus, given their spiked tail, and boney plates, which will scare off any attackers. Or maybe just safely conclude that casually pondering what might or might not work isn’t good enough, and cannot compare to what’s faced in a real situation, where simply knowing what the word steganography means wouldn’t help either.
  - anonu 8y ago
    You created a throwaway to troll me about my misspelling. Bravo Bravo... Tool... Instead of fostering a constructive discussion... you do this. And you get upvoted. HN isn't what it used to be...
    - wowzerz 8y ago
      HN has only ever been civilized by way of preferential moderation. Don’t delude yourself with rose colored glasses. Just continue to take my comments personally, as if you were being attacked by a close friend.
matt_s 8y ago
This is why when you read memoirs of CIA officers they most always state human trade-craft will trump technical gadgetry all the time.
throwawaymanbot 8y ago
It was a firewall issue? So it could have been set up correctly, and the firewall rule added in later right? (Maybe someone else in DC wanted to eavesderp!) The CIA are excellent in their tradecraft. Its the Digital aspect that is casing issue. Of course we are not hearing about chinas digital failures, but they have them as well im sure.
mikec3010 8y ago
I'm surprised they didn't do something truly clandestine like embed encrypted texts into photos of merchandise and list them on amazon/alibaba
- secfirstmd 8y ago
  There was someone at a high profile defence company using Amazon.com to communicate information to handlers a few years ago.
JabavuAdams 8y ago
How do intelligence agencies deal with the fact that once you've got a key logger on your system, you're hosed?
394549 8y ago
It's probably also a mistake to use the set of communication systems for all your agents, even if you trust them. For something as high-risk as this, they should use bespoke systems for each agent or each sub-network. Doing otherwise is putting all their eggs in one basket.
AIX2ESXI 8y ago
Fucking A man. As an American tax payer and patriot I am pissed that China gets away with shit like this. Time for us to play dirty games and get retribution.
WindowsFon4life 8y ago
Yeah because it could not be due to this. https://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2018/08/01/details-chinese-spy-dianne-feinstein-san-francisco/ https://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2018/08/01/details-chinese...
guest 8y ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRWCK9zGynA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRWCK9zGynA

277 points by mkeeter 8y ago

"This didn't make it into the piece, but here's how the Chinese treated people working with the CIA: According to one source, one asset working at a state tech institutes, and his pregnant wife, were executed live on closed circuit TV in front of the staff." https://twitter.com/zachsdorfman/status/1029861843521523712 https://twitter.com/zachsdorfman/status/1029861843521523712

King-Aaron 8y ago
Obviously a revelation on Twitter about a secretive organisation's workings should always be taken with a grain of salt. However these sorts of reports aren't too uncommon, and it surprises me how there's a lot of pro-china commentators in communities such as HN who seem to glaze over these sorts of things and still aggressively promote the "Chinese way of doing things" is superior to whatever western value or opinion is the discussion point of the day.
- nyolfen 8y ago
  fwiw the tweet is by the author of the linked article
- 68c12c16 8y ago
  I think what we call the skill of "analysis" is to divide an abstract object into a set of its containing elements, and then differentiate those elements and treat each element for its own different case. China is one such abstract object...It's never about pro-china or anti-china -- after all it is a society of 1 billion individuals who are all differentiable from each other (and we have to differentiate a random chinese people from their government)...if we find a certain aspect of China appealing and potentially benecial to our own society, then why not just "like" that aspect and learn from them? In the last few decades of the 5th century BC, Sparta and Athens fought a war with each other, which Athens had lost...but this did not prevent Plato (who was an Athenian) from praising certain aspects of Spartan society.
  - BurritoAlPastor 8y ago
    And also didn't prevent us (a couple thousand years later) from lumping them all together as "ancient Greece". Distance from the components, in time or space, lets us paint the set as homogeneous.
    - 68c12c16 8y ago
      I was just doing a categorical mapping, which you might call it analogy... How is that "lumping" relevant to the current discussion initiated by King-Aaron?
  - cjhanks 8y ago
    And then didn't he die from ingesting hemlock?
    - alasdair_ 8y ago
      >And then didn't he die from ingesting hemlock? No. He probably died in his sleep. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plato#Death https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plato#Death You're probably thinking of Socrates, who deliberately killed himself by eating hemlock.
  - King-Aaron 8y ago
    I certainly don't disagree. I do think that your point is possibly lost on a lot of people that are drawing these sorts of comparisons though...
    - 68c12c16 8y ago
      sorry...analogy quite often can cause confusions...I will try to make more intuitive and relevant ones in the future... It's just that the current situation between China and the U.S. bears a lot of similarities as that between Peloponnesian League (led by Sparta) and Athenian Empire during the Peloponnesian War. At the time, Sparta was an oligarchic society and Athens was a democratic one. Thucydides considered the cause of the war was because Sparta was worried about the rise of Athens could threaten its own way of life, and Athens wanted to spread democracy to other city states. There seemed to be no intrinsic conflict between the two states...the problem was that they did not trust each other, only because they were different. I personally feel this situation is quite like the current situation between US and China...There is no intrinsic conflict; they just don't trust each other (sometime even a bit phobic of each other), only because they are different...
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- toomanybeersies 8y ago
  I agree that I see a lot of Chinese apologism in the form of "this is the Chinese way" here. I wouldn't say that the comments are necessarily pro-China though, but rather just explaining that it is a different culture and things are done in a different way. I do think it's a bullshit cop out though. I think that it's ignorant at best and racist at worst when people make comments here along the lines of "Chinese people like authoritarian societies and couldn't function in a democracy", usually justified by saying that China has been an authoritarian society since day 0. Europe, until recently, was a continent ruled by autocrats (whether in the form of kings, presidents, or emperors). There are plenty of Chinese democracy activists, and I'm yet to meet a Chinese immigrant who has any love for the CCP and the Chinese government.
  - Jarwain 8y ago
    Would an immigrant Be an immigrant if they held love for the CCP and the Chinese Government?
    - bacon_waffle 8y ago
      There are a lot of reasons that people move to different countries, aside from feelings about the government they're moving away from.
    - toomanybeersies 8y ago
      I migrated from New Zealand to Australia, yet I like the current ruling coalition and government in New Zealand and dislike the Australian ruling coalition and government. There are reasons to migrate beyond politics.
    - 07d046 8y ago
      There's been a lot of discussion recently about Chinese influence or interference in Australia, and much of that is through Chinese people living in Australia. For example, Chau Chak Wing is a Chinese-Australian billionaire with ties to the Chinese Communist Party, is one of Australia's top political donors, and is the unindicted co-conspirator in a bribery case involving the former president of the UN general assembly. https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/political-donor-chau-chak-wing-behind-un-bribe-scandal-parliament-told-20180522-p4zgs5.html https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/political-donor-chau... Edit: In today's news, more controversy around another Chinese billionaire with permanent residence in Australia and how he's getting involved in Australian politics for the benefit of the CCP https://www.smh.com.au/politics/western-australia/wyatt-s-all-expenses-paid-china-trip-linked-to-controversial-billionaire-communist-regime-20180815-p4zxn2.html https://www.smh.com.au/politics/western-australia/wyatt-s-al...
- TangoTrotFox 8y ago
  Out of curiosity, how do you think traitors providing potentially critical intelligence to one of the most dangerous agencies of a powerful and aggressive unfriendly foreign power should be treated, when there is literally zero doubt as to their guilt? And to be clear, I'm not condoning this action but I'm also not so quick condemn it. I'm genuinely uncertain if I somehow were the Chinese government what my decision would be, but I think you are quite certain -- and it's sparked my curiosity.
  - throwawayt1894 8y ago
    I'm just surprised they didn't try to make them double agents or at least feed them false information. It seems like a rash judgement to suddenly eliminate 30+ people who you know are spies.
    - computerfriend 8y ago
      There's an incentive to do it all at once, or as rapidly as possible. If you try to recruit them, you run the risk of them reporting this and suddenly the other 29 spies are exfiltrated.
    - yourapostasy 8y ago
      > It seems like a rash judgement to suddenly eliminate 30+ people who you know are spies. It isn't a rash judgement if the CCP is so confident of their counter-intelligence program, that they evaluate the effort of neutralizing with disinfo or turning those 30+ is not worth their trouble and informational value. Considering the scale and depth of surveillance they employ within China, and continued heavy investment into more, I wouldn't want to off-hand rule out that possibility.
  - King-Aaron 8y ago
    > but I think you are quite certain Quite the contrary, not sure how this conclusion was drawn. I just feel that "execution of them and their family broadcast to the entire staff" isn't really a value that is typically held in high esteem.
  - 8y ago
- Rapzid 8y ago
  If you study the grammar on a lot of these posts, all over the internet even, you may come to the conclusion that the posters are government plants or Chinese CCP zealots. I wouldn't rule out a massive propoganda campaign; HN, mainstream news article comments, suspicious Quora "questions" about China with manipulative "answers", Confucius Institutes!..
  - 68c12c16 8y ago
    It would be nice if someone could come up with an algorithm that automatically tell which posts are astroturfing, just like fakespot.com But apparently this would be much more difficult than the algorithm used by fakespot, and seem to be less domain specific... But at least, perhaps, we could do some information clustering, as comments written by independent individuals are more likely to have greater variances -- and quite often, difference is what makes an individual human so valuable...
    - JetSpiegel 8y ago
      Call it Pravda. Musk is game for it.
  - toomanybeersies 8y ago
    Not even just comments on news articles. I've read plenty of news articles that view China and their foreign policy with suspiciously rose tinted glasses. Especially around the One Belt One Road initiative.
- jmartrican 8y ago
  I try to be careful and separate 'Chinese' from 'China's Communist Party'.
- mikec3010 8y ago
  Yeah it's barbaric what the Chinese do to spies. Next thing you know they'll be waterboarding prisoners or holding people without trial for a decade. Good thing we're superior westerners, huh?
  - nyolfen 8y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism
- throw2016 8y ago
  Most of the comments are not pro China but highlight the brazen hypocrisy of getting worked out about China in the face of all encompassing surveillance currently run by the NSA, GCHQ and Google, Facebook and others which is a far bigger and ongoing threat to democracy and citizens here. China's actions are limited to China. There is hardly any activism against the invasive surveillance of SV companies or protests against the NSA. This forum itself has its fair share of apologists for surveillance capitalism. So where are the protests in front of Google and Facebooks campuses and in Washington? So if people don't care about these issues at home how can they care about them in China? This is simply not credible or serious. China's actions don't impact people here, your governments and companies here do. In the absence of any mainstream activism, just singling out China for outrage and anger is duplicitous and comes across as motivated more by politics than any genuine concern for the issues or people impacted. And using human rights for cheap points ultimately trivializes it and risks bad actors who have no interest in human rights pushing their own agenda. So better for the Chinese to fix their country, there are 1.3 billion of them, and for us to fix ours.
- anotheramala 8y ago
  The Chinese have an active propaganda machine for decades which tells all Chinese people the world is out to get them. They have completely internalized that. This makes them defensive and nationalistic so they can defend whatever the state does to them.
07d046 8y ago
From an earlier NYT piece: > According to three of the officials, one was shot in front of his colleagues in the courtyard of a government building — a message to others who might have been working for the C.I.A. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/20/world/asia/china-cia-spies-espionage.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/20/world/asia/china-cia-spie...
- onetimemanytime 8y ago
  USA has the death penalty for treason too. Now you can argue back and forth (US wants China to eventually be democratic so I'm helping China by spying for CIA...etc) but they essentially betrayed their country. Chinese efficiency: Torture them till they tell want they know and then teach others a lesson along the way too. https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2381 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2381 Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.
  - garmaine 8y ago
    Missing the point. There's something to be said about treating every human with dignity, even the traitors.
    - onetimemanytime 8y ago
      I am sure they got a trial, albeit a 2 minute one, appeals included. Even in China looks like they improved from "Hanged, drawn and quartered," but let's be honest, things are different over there. Or we may want to ask about being treated with dignity those that are in Guantanamo Bay. Bottom line, one that betrays his country should know the--locally decided--risks. In Russia they kill you even after "forgiving" you (see last case in UK)
      - 8y ago
68c12c16 8y ago
I think the reason why Chinese government would execute defected officials, instead of putting them in prison for life, is because historically defected officials often caused very serious losses to the chinese communist party. For instance, one of the most damaging defectors in their history was Gu Shunzhang, who led to the arrest of hundreds of their underground communists (many of those arrested were executed by the KMT government at the time). In those early days, the Chinese communist party was very weak and had to fight for its own survival. So as a result, Zhou Enlai ordered the assassination of almost Gu's entire family, as warning and revenge [1]... I think this bears a certain similarity to the rationale of that IRA members assassinated their defectors and French executed their traitors in WWII... It's just sad to see that certain traditions still remained unchanged with the Chinese government (or more specifically, their communist party) ...but at least we can see how much they hate defectors; and we can find some common root of that in all humanity... Perhaps things will change when they value human life more, which I think they will do when their individual's economic condition continues to improve...When the existence of an average life makes little difference to a society, statistically, life would be socially regarded as cheap... -- [1] https://www.nytimes.com/1991/02/03/weekinreview/the-world-15-years-after-zhou-s-death-his-image-is-larger-than-life.html https://www.nytimes.com/1991/02/03/weekinreview/the-world-15...
- throwawayt1894 8y ago
  I don't think it has anything to do with valuing human life or not. I'm sure we both agree the US values human life, but the government is more than willing to accept the death of a 16 year old American citizen when trying to target his father during a drone strike. I'm more surprised that they would reveal their hand so suddenly. Maybe I watch too many movies, but I would think if you have exposed the entire network, then doing counter-espionage would be the smarter tactic.
  - 68c12c16 8y ago
    At the time of the drone strike, perhaps to the remote drone pilots, conceptually, the 16-year old kid was not an American citizen but merely someone who was different than they were...
dnomad 8y ago
This is exactly like the wild claims about "Iraqi babies being killed in incubators" [1]. It's an absurd, baseless claim but somehow it gets regularly accepted as true. At some point you would think that journalists would show even a little intelligence, a little competence, a little skepticism. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nayirah_testimony https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nayirah_testimony

solatic 8y ago

>But the CIA’s interim system contained a technical error: It connected back architecturally to the CIA’s main covert communications platform. When the compromise was suspected, the FBI and NSA both ran “penetration tests” to determine the security of the interim system. They found that cyber experts with access to the interim system could also access the broader covert communications system the agency was using to interact with its vetted sources, according to the former officials. >In the words of one of the former officials, the CIA had “fucked up the firewall” between the two systems. If you read between the lines, this raises the suspicion that there's a common underlying infrastructure which handles the communications, with management front-ends for different users which are firewalled off from each other, and the security of the system relied upon the firewall between the different front-ends to prevent users from finding out about each other. However, an attacker who compromised the "less secure" front end, could use that as a launching pad to attack the underlying communication infrastructure, and if the attacker pwned the infrastructure, then he'd have a back entrance to the "more secure" front end. If that's the case, then somebody was grossly incompetent, depending on the age of the system: if the system is old enough, then somebody running ops in the CIA is incompetent, for continuing to operate a system whose security model ("all you need is a strong enough firewall!") was obsolete; if the system is young enough, then either the original architects, or the security engineers who certified the architecture (if there were any), for proposing an architecture with an obsolete security model. Arguably, that incompetence amounts to criminal negligence, since it resulted in the deaths of US agents, and somebody should be tried for it.

baybal2 8y ago
How stupid it is to spend so much effort on compartmentalising their intel net in the country, but have all spies report by dialing in into the same website in a country employing few brigades worth of people reading tcpdumps 24/7? Compare that to one way coded messages over hf radio: a place for pick up of a dead drop in n days is broadcasted, then it is picked up by a man who reads it, destroys it, and gtfos from the country. In that scheme nobody in any way contacts anybody in real time other that the HQ.
- nerdponx 8y ago

yborg 8y ago

It took 8 years for the CIA to figure out what happened?? This certainly explains why China and Russia continue to conduct cyber operations basically at the same level of intensity they have been for years - US intelligence, despite its enormous, unaccountable budget is unable to stop them or even know where they are compromised. If there is an actual hot conflict between the US and either of these nations, I shudder to think what will happen. I don't believe the US lacks in technical skill at the operational level. These failures are management and organizational failures.

onetimemanytime 8y ago
>>If there is an actual hot conflict between the US and either of these nations, I shudder to think what will happen. a hot conflict entirely dependent on satellites and other means of communications. The war can end right after the first shot is fired.
- achow 8y ago
  The point that was being made is China/Russia perhaps is still not there with all their covert operation guns out and blazing. If situation does arise (hot conflict or otherwise) then one "shudders to think" what would be the implications.
  - onetimemanytime 8y ago
    That's I meant too,even in WWII communication was key, imagine today when all is computer controlled. China and Russia might be in the system already and waiting
    - hulahoof 8y ago
      I think it's pretty safe to say, while these games are always cat and mouse, that globally cyber defense is not approached with the same determination as cyber offence, and perhaps it can't be with resources in the same order. I think personally it's pretty likely that they're in our systems, and we're in theirs, for almost any major nation - ally or not. It's just MAD all over again.

jmnicolas 8y ago

It seems that the CIA is more embarrassed that their IT has been breached by the Chinese than the death of people that trusted them.

ovi256 8y ago
Treating the recruited agents as disposable has been the rule rather than the exception throughout the ages. The average half-life of an clandestine agent is surprisingly low, and planned for accordingly.
waterbear 8y ago
Another way to look at it is to consider that it’s really embarassing to suffer an extremely high cost in lives lost, over a misconfigured Group Policy Object or Windows Registry Key or /etc/hosts file. Something like that is akin to trusting cheap sheetrock/gypsum board and a couple of molly screws to support the weight of some priceless oil painting in a massive ornamental frame. To see a priceless thing destroyed, but for want of a proper wall to mount it on is insult to injury.

sanatgersappa 8y ago

they shouldn't have kicked Auggie upstairs.

jarym 8y ago

Maybe they should have used BBM/iMessage/WhatsApp - all the civilian gear governments are screaming they need backdoors into because they’re too tough to crack... Yes I say this partly in jest and also partly as a ‘why didn’t they’. BBM Enterprise over a VPN service popular with movie streamers would have actually helped them blend in... digitally speaking.

bsimpson 8y ago
Just because the Albuquerque Police Department can't crack <insert secure messenger here> doesn't mean the NSA can't. Interesting point about blending in, but I suspect they thought they could build a system more secure than the commercial options and/or didn't trust their security in the hands of a third party.
- jarym 8y ago
  Security is hard. I’d take a commercial system that has years of history and that many major governments have rallied against (BES) over a home-grown system that obviously got tested in the field... and cost lives!
repolfx 8y ago
All those are blocked in China, no?
DownGoat 8y ago
An intelligence operation has different requirements. While those listed applications might hide the contents of the messages, you can still see that messages were sent/received, and that might be enough to warrant you for summary execution in China. During WW2/WW1 the British knew when air raids were coming from Germany by recognizing radio traffic patterns, and activity. The radio traffic was encrypted, and they could not understand whatever was sent, but the traffic itself created patterns that alerted them.

olivermarks 8y ago

Other Dorfman articles https://foreignpolicy.com/author/zach-dorfman/ https://foreignpolicy.com/author/zach-dorfman/ I treat any media 'story' about spooks with great suspicion, because it almost almost invariably winds up over time that there are far more layers to the onion than are revealed in these types of exposes. I wonder what 'The disaster in China has led some officials to conclude that internet-based systems, even ones that employ sophisticated encryption, can never be counted on to shield assets' is going to lead to? Some sort of new infrastructure may even already be in use...

patrickg_zill 8y ago
When the Russians were concerned about security, they switched back to using typewriters. Don't assume that a high tech solution would always be the answer...

mywacaday 8y ago

110% pure fantasy but could google be encouraged by the CIA to enter the Chinese market with whatever restrictions the Chinese government imposes but provide secure communication for whoever the CIA needs it for?

AKifer 8y ago

Typically chinese way of doing things, making the opponent thinking that he's invincible then striking hard and fast at the right time. That in every domain.

jessaustin 8y ago
What are some other examples of this typical phenomenon?

_iyig 8y ago

The CIA has a long and storied history of arrogance, incompetence, and letting down sources. The book, “Legacy of Ashes” provides an excellent readable, detailed history of the Agency since its creation, with tons of primary-source interviews and research. (The title refers to a quote by Eisenhower, who left the Presidency disappointed at the “legacy of ashes” which was all he felt the CIA accomplished during his tenure.)

gregshap 8y ago

Sounds like “fucked up the firewall” == "fucked up a WHERE clause"

evntllyCnsistnt 8y ago

Knowing how absurdly insecure any civilian consumer system is (laptop, smart phone, home assistant, self driving car), with zero day fire-and-not-a-drill-at-all advisories, pretty much every month, I don’t get how this sort of thing happens. I also fail to see how a decision like this could be made: The CIA had imported the system from its Middle East operations... To China? The degree of technical differences between those two regions is so intuitively disparate, that without having been to either, I’d still never estimate that a game plan for one would work in the other. Cell phones make sense in desert territories with good satellite coverage, and attacking, as much as operating those same cell phones makes sense too, in a volatile atmosphere. Meanwhile, in China, with world class supercomputing facilities operated at scientific research institutions, one can only safely assume that no amount of cryptography or electronic transmission is safe. Not even one-time pads. Each seems like it’s own game, with it’s own rules. What a mistake to not approach them differently. It’s like trying to steal cars from a suburban driveway at dinner time, versus a city parking garage during rush hour. A car is not simply a thing with wheels, that rolls away as soon as you can hop inside.

pertymcpert 8y ago
How could one time pads be broken?
- wowzerz 8y ago
  No one really tries to break encryption, when side channel attacks can capture a message during the process of encryption. No one thinks in encrypted text. The plain text is always created and then translated over to the enciphered copy. The plain text will always exist in some way, so that a message may be proof-read before sending. Even if printed on the sceen of a secure display monitor. If an environment is stifling enough, it might be painfully obvious that someone is stepping out of line to work on carefully disclosing secrets. Obviously laws don’t matter in China, and if there’s a scent of dishonesty in the wrong context, I’m sure it wouldn’t take much find a way to watch every second of someone’s humble existence, if they’re not above executing pregnant women to send a message about what not watching your husband gets you.
8y ago

anonu 8y ago

This is a fascinating story. But I always think about what the motives are to reveal such information. What you read is always different than the actual... In a separate note, I'm not sure technically what the right solution is, but I imagine an encrypted stenographic message on a popular peer to peer internet service would be the best way to avoid detection. ... When the entire web is being monitored.

wowzerz 8y ago
It’d be best to imagine something else. Stenographers are much too busy in court, recording transcripts of proceedings as they transpire. They wouldn’t have time to help avoid detection. I think it’s probably better to use a stegosaurus, given their spiked tail, and boney plates, which will scare off any attackers. Or maybe just safely conclude that casually pondering what might or might not work isn’t good enough, and cannot compare to what’s faced in a real situation, where simply knowing what the word steganography means wouldn’t help either.
- anonu 8y ago
  You created a throwaway to troll me about my misspelling. Bravo Bravo... Tool... Instead of fostering a constructive discussion... you do this. And you get upvoted. HN isn't what it used to be...
  - wowzerz 8y ago
    HN has only ever been civilized by way of preferential moderation. Don’t delude yourself with rose colored glasses. Just continue to take my comments personally, as if you were being attacked by a close friend.

matt_s 8y ago

This is why when you read memoirs of CIA officers they most always state human trade-craft will trump technical gadgetry all the time.

throwawaymanbot 8y ago

It was a firewall issue? So it could have been set up correctly, and the firewall rule added in later right? (Maybe someone else in DC wanted to eavesderp!) The CIA are excellent in their tradecraft. Its the Digital aspect that is casing issue. Of course we are not hearing about chinas digital failures, but they have them as well im sure.

mikec3010 8y ago

I'm surprised they didn't do something truly clandestine like embed encrypted texts into photos of merchandise and list them on amazon/alibaba

secfirstmd 8y ago
There was someone at a high profile defence company using Amazon.com to communicate information to handlers a few years ago.

JabavuAdams 8y ago

How do intelligence agencies deal with the fact that once you've got a key logger on your system, you're hosed?

394549 8y ago

It's probably also a mistake to use the set of communication systems for all your agents, even if you trust them. For something as high-risk as this, they should use bespoke systems for each agent or each sub-network. Doing otherwise is putting all their eggs in one basket.

AIX2ESXI 8y ago

Fucking A man. As an American tax payer and patriot I am pissed that China gets away with shit like this. Time for us to play dirty games and get retribution.

WindowsFon4life 8y ago

Yeah because it could not be due to this. https://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2018/08/01/details-chinese-spy-dianne-feinstein-san-francisco/ https://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2018/08/01/details-chinese...

guest 8y ago

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRWCK9zGynA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRWCK9zGynA