4 ms·

This is an insane "povertarian" mindset -- what about all the benefits connectivity brings to actual Cubans?

jasonkester 8y ago
Sadly, I suspect that opening up to the rest of the world will actually make things worse for the average Cuban. Take a stroll through old town Havana and look at all the amazing old buildings that would be converted into million dollar condos during the first six months that rich Americans were allowed to buy property there. There is a lot of Carribbean around to compare the place to, and frankly, it doesn't compare well to present day Cuba as far as quality of life for the average citizen. As to your personal attack, I don't know... I don't really see anything wrong with enjoying visiting a place. Or with being nostalgic for what a place used to be. I also, for example, think it's a shame that Belltown in Seattle replaced its cool dive bars with trendy restaurants and condos. But it would be a bit silly to blame me for those dive bars having been there in the first place.
- pzone 8y ago
  Suppose an American buys a beautiful old property in the middle of Havana for $1M USD. Your claim is that this is harmful to Cubans because renovating this property will cause it to lose some of its charm. But you're forgetting about half of that transaction: all of a sudden the Cuban or Cubans who sold the property (perhaps the government?) have an additional $1M in cash to purchase whatever they like. This could be things that are far more of a premium than old houses, such as cars, electronics, and other modern necessities they are currently missing. I don't see Cubans losing in that deal If you're worried about the visual appearance of Havana and, just pass NIMBY laws until you're satisfied they can't screw up the "neighborhood feel" too much. These are all solvable problems. Nothing here is reason to keep Cubans impoverished in exile from the world economy.
  - jasonkester 8y ago
    Sounds like you misunderstood my point. The cool thing about Havana is that regular people can afford to live in one of those buildings. 5 years from now, no Cubans will be there anymore, and it will just be another of the dozens of charming old colonial cities that Expats live in. The displaced locals will have a generation or two worth of cash to spend at the new Walgreens and KFCs out in the suburbs, but down the line they'll be back to being poor folk instead of middle class where they are currently. There already exists a city with rich Americans living in it, buying overpriced Cuban sandwiches from Cuban people. Using that as a handy comparison, I contend that the median Cuban in Havana currently lives a nicer life than the median Cuban in Miami. They're going to exchange one for the other regardless of how either of us feel about it, because that's how progress always works. But my suspicion is that a few generations down the line the people concerned will regret it.
    - kingofhdds 8y ago
      Those buildings are literally falling apart, no wonder "regular people" can afford to live there. You seem not to realize that your romantic feelings towards this backwardness is only possible because you come there as a rich (compared to locals) tourist, not as restricted in your rights as they are.
    - Kalium 8y ago
      > There already exists a city with rich Americans living in it, buying overpriced Cuban sandwiches from Cuban people. Using that as a handy comparison, I contend that the median Cuban in Havana currently lives a nicer life than the median Cuban in Miami. Have you considered asking them? Their answers might allow you to know their opinions, rather than presuming.
    - woah 8y ago
      Maybe ask some Cubans, see what they say. Sounds like you mostly want a quaint set piece to stroll through and enjoy the exchange rate.

Sadly, I suspect that opening up to the rest of the world will actually make things worse for the average Cuban. Take a stroll through old town Havana and look at all the amazing old buildings that would be converted into million dollar condos during the first six months that rich Americans were allowed to buy property there. There is a lot of Carribbean around to compare the place to, and frankly, it doesn't compare well to present day Cuba as far as quality of life for the average citizen. As to your personal attack, I don't know... I don't really see anything wrong with enjoying visiting a place. Or with being nostalgic for what a place used to be. I also, for example, think it's a shame that Belltown in Seattle replaced its cool dive bars with trendy restaurants and condos. But it would be a bit silly to blame me for those dive bars having been there in the first place.

pzone 8y ago
Suppose an American buys a beautiful old property in the middle of Havana for $1M USD. Your claim is that this is harmful to Cubans because renovating this property will cause it to lose some of its charm. But you're forgetting about half of that transaction: all of a sudden the Cuban or Cubans who sold the property (perhaps the government?) have an additional $1M in cash to purchase whatever they like. This could be things that are far more of a premium than old houses, such as cars, electronics, and other modern necessities they are currently missing. I don't see Cubans losing in that deal If you're worried about the visual appearance of Havana and, just pass NIMBY laws until you're satisfied they can't screw up the "neighborhood feel" too much. These are all solvable problems. Nothing here is reason to keep Cubans impoverished in exile from the world economy.
- jasonkester 8y ago
  Sounds like you misunderstood my point. The cool thing about Havana is that regular people can afford to live in one of those buildings. 5 years from now, no Cubans will be there anymore, and it will just be another of the dozens of charming old colonial cities that Expats live in. The displaced locals will have a generation or two worth of cash to spend at the new Walgreens and KFCs out in the suburbs, but down the line they'll be back to being poor folk instead of middle class where they are currently. There already exists a city with rich Americans living in it, buying overpriced Cuban sandwiches from Cuban people. Using that as a handy comparison, I contend that the median Cuban in Havana currently lives a nicer life than the median Cuban in Miami. They're going to exchange one for the other regardless of how either of us feel about it, because that's how progress always works. But my suspicion is that a few generations down the line the people concerned will regret it.
  - kingofhdds 8y ago
    Those buildings are literally falling apart, no wonder "regular people" can afford to live there. You seem not to realize that your romantic feelings towards this backwardness is only possible because you come there as a rich (compared to locals) tourist, not as restricted in your rights as they are.
  - Kalium 8y ago
    > There already exists a city with rich Americans living in it, buying overpriced Cuban sandwiches from Cuban people. Using that as a handy comparison, I contend that the median Cuban in Havana currently lives a nicer life than the median Cuban in Miami. Have you considered asking them? Their answers might allow you to know their opinions, rather than presuming.
  - woah 8y ago
    Maybe ask some Cubans, see what they say. Sounds like you mostly want a quaint set piece to stroll through and enjoy the exchange rate.