6 ms·

Aw, that's a shame. Cuba is a really cool place, and a lot of what makes it special is the lack of internet. It's disconnected in a way that you really can't

Aw, that's a shame. Cuba is a really cool place, and a lot of what makes it special is the lack of internet. It's disconnected in a way that you really can't experience anywhere else in the world. Want to change your flight? Too bad. Can't do that. Want to research the next town? Pull out a book or ask somebody. Going there is like travelling was back in the 90s. You take a bus to the next town, then walk around with your bag asking at various houses if they have any rooms available. The lady at one may direct you a block down to her friend, and it all works itself out. Better still, go to a restaurant at night, drink a beer and watch the amazing local band playing. And talk to people because nobody is engrossed in their phone. They can't be, because there is no internet. Other places, I can't remember the last time I was able to strike up a conversation with travelers through the barrier of their phone. In Cuba, I was talking to random people every single night. Because that's all there was to do. It really drives home how much connectivity can wreck things. And it'd be a shame if we lost the last place in the world that still works like that.

forgingahead 8y ago
This is an insane "povertarian" mindset -- what about all the benefits connectivity brings to actual Cubans?
- jasonkester 8y ago
  Sadly, I suspect that opening up to the rest of the world will actually make things worse for the average Cuban. Take a stroll through old town Havana and look at all the amazing old buildings that would be converted into million dollar condos during the first six months that rich Americans were allowed to buy property there. There is a lot of Carribbean around to compare the place to, and frankly, it doesn't compare well to present day Cuba as far as quality of life for the average citizen. As to your personal attack, I don't know... I don't really see anything wrong with enjoying visiting a place. Or with being nostalgic for what a place used to be. I also, for example, think it's a shame that Belltown in Seattle replaced its cool dive bars with trendy restaurants and condos. But it would be a bit silly to blame me for those dive bars having been there in the first place.
  - pzone 8y ago
    Suppose an American buys a beautiful old property in the middle of Havana for $1M USD. Your claim is that this is harmful to Cubans because renovating this property will cause it to lose some of its charm. But you're forgetting about half of that transaction: all of a sudden the Cuban or Cubans who sold the property (perhaps the government?) have an additional $1M in cash to purchase whatever they like. This could be things that are far more of a premium than old houses, such as cars, electronics, and other modern necessities they are currently missing. I don't see Cubans losing in that deal If you're worried about the visual appearance of Havana and, just pass NIMBY laws until you're satisfied they can't screw up the "neighborhood feel" too much. These are all solvable problems. Nothing here is reason to keep Cubans impoverished in exile from the world economy.
    - jasonkester 8y ago
      Sounds like you misunderstood my point. The cool thing about Havana is that regular people can afford to live in one of those buildings. 5 years from now, no Cubans will be there anymore, and it will just be another of the dozens of charming old colonial cities that Expats live in. The displaced locals will have a generation or two worth of cash to spend at the new Walgreens and KFCs out in the suburbs, but down the line they'll be back to being poor folk instead of middle class where they are currently. There already exists a city with rich Americans living in it, buying overpriced Cuban sandwiches from Cuban people. Using that as a handy comparison, I contend that the median Cuban in Havana currently lives a nicer life than the median Cuban in Miami. They're going to exchange one for the other regardless of how either of us feel about it, because that's how progress always works. But my suspicion is that a few generations down the line the people concerned will regret it.
      - kingofhdds 8y ago
        Those buildings are literally falling apart, no wonder "regular people" can afford to live there. You seem not to realize that your romantic feelings towards this backwardness is only possible because you come there as a rich (compared to locals) tourist, not as restricted in your rights as they are.
toyg 8y ago
It is inevitable. "We" have no right to deny anybody else the chance to develop the same way "we" did, if they so choose - which they will, inevitably, since "we" slap our wealth in their face every day. It's the same with pollution in China. Maybe the answer is finding a way to reconnect networks and physical proximity, like having location-based chatrooms that are somehow automatically joined as you step into a room. This would let people keep control but also give everyone a chance to start conversations.
dantheman 8y ago
To express a desire for other people to be less free so that your vacation is more interesting is terrible.
- jasonkester 8y ago
  It's a shame that you came away with that impression after reading my comment.
  - throwaway080383 8y ago
    I also came with away with that impression, and another reply seems to have as well.
    - jasonkester 8y ago
      Indeed. I must not have expressed myself very well, as people downthread still seem to think I'm advocating against opening things up. Things will open themselves up regardless, and that's fine. But it's also true that it's really nice there today. I'd recommend going to check it out while there's still time.
  - kup0 8y ago
    It is an impression easily taken from your comment. Just because we have the "privilege" (often considered a loaded word, I know, but applicable here, IMHO) to visit a place like Cuba and enjoy its disconnectedness, the audacity it takes to desire to force that on a country of people that has never had any other choice is repugnant to me. "it shouldn't change because I had a good time there" feels pretty slimy Yes, technological progress/development will potentially bring what you consider downsides with it, which might be the crux of your point, but that's being unable to see the forest for the trees, IMHO
    - jasonkester 8y ago
      "to desire to force that on a country of people" Keep in mind that you added that part yourself, then perhaps you'll understand my sentiment better. Lots of places in the world are nice now, while simultaneously not being perfect. Pointing out the first bit doesn't imply actively working in opposition of the second part.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

forgingahead 8y ago

This is an insane "povertarian" mindset -- what about all the benefits connectivity brings to actual Cubans?

jasonkester 8y ago
Sadly, I suspect that opening up to the rest of the world will actually make things worse for the average Cuban. Take a stroll through old town Havana and look at all the amazing old buildings that would be converted into million dollar condos during the first six months that rich Americans were allowed to buy property there. There is a lot of Carribbean around to compare the place to, and frankly, it doesn't compare well to present day Cuba as far as quality of life for the average citizen. As to your personal attack, I don't know... I don't really see anything wrong with enjoying visiting a place. Or with being nostalgic for what a place used to be. I also, for example, think it's a shame that Belltown in Seattle replaced its cool dive bars with trendy restaurants and condos. But it would be a bit silly to blame me for those dive bars having been there in the first place.
- pzone 8y ago
  Suppose an American buys a beautiful old property in the middle of Havana for $1M USD. Your claim is that this is harmful to Cubans because renovating this property will cause it to lose some of its charm. But you're forgetting about half of that transaction: all of a sudden the Cuban or Cubans who sold the property (perhaps the government?) have an additional $1M in cash to purchase whatever they like. This could be things that are far more of a premium than old houses, such as cars, electronics, and other modern necessities they are currently missing. I don't see Cubans losing in that deal If you're worried about the visual appearance of Havana and, just pass NIMBY laws until you're satisfied they can't screw up the "neighborhood feel" too much. These are all solvable problems. Nothing here is reason to keep Cubans impoverished in exile from the world economy.
  - jasonkester 8y ago
    Sounds like you misunderstood my point. The cool thing about Havana is that regular people can afford to live in one of those buildings. 5 years from now, no Cubans will be there anymore, and it will just be another of the dozens of charming old colonial cities that Expats live in. The displaced locals will have a generation or two worth of cash to spend at the new Walgreens and KFCs out in the suburbs, but down the line they'll be back to being poor folk instead of middle class where they are currently. There already exists a city with rich Americans living in it, buying overpriced Cuban sandwiches from Cuban people. Using that as a handy comparison, I contend that the median Cuban in Havana currently lives a nicer life than the median Cuban in Miami. They're going to exchange one for the other regardless of how either of us feel about it, because that's how progress always works. But my suspicion is that a few generations down the line the people concerned will regret it.
    - kingofhdds 8y ago
      Those buildings are literally falling apart, no wonder "regular people" can afford to live there. You seem not to realize that your romantic feelings towards this backwardness is only possible because you come there as a rich (compared to locals) tourist, not as restricted in your rights as they are.

toyg 8y ago

It is inevitable. "We" have no right to deny anybody else the chance to develop the same way "we" did, if they so choose - which they will, inevitably, since "we" slap our wealth in their face every day. It's the same with pollution in China. Maybe the answer is finding a way to reconnect networks and physical proximity, like having location-based chatrooms that are somehow automatically joined as you step into a room. This would let people keep control but also give everyone a chance to start conversations.

dantheman 8y ago

To express a desire for other people to be less free so that your vacation is more interesting is terrible.

jasonkester 8y ago
It's a shame that you came away with that impression after reading my comment.
- throwaway080383 8y ago
  I also came with away with that impression, and another reply seems to have as well.
  - jasonkester 8y ago
    Indeed. I must not have expressed myself very well, as people downthread still seem to think I'm advocating against opening things up. Things will open themselves up regardless, and that's fine. But it's also true that it's really nice there today. I'd recommend going to check it out while there's still time.
- kup0 8y ago
  It is an impression easily taken from your comment. Just because we have the "privilege" (often considered a loaded word, I know, but applicable here, IMHO) to visit a place like Cuba and enjoy its disconnectedness, the audacity it takes to desire to force that on a country of people that has never had any other choice is repugnant to me. "it shouldn't change because I had a good time there" feels pretty slimy Yes, technological progress/development will potentially bring what you consider downsides with it, which might be the crux of your point, but that's being unable to see the forest for the trees, IMHO
  - jasonkester 8y ago
    "to desire to force that on a country of people" Keep in mind that you added that part yourself, then perhaps you'll understand my sentiment better. Lots of places in the world are nice now, while simultaneously not being perfect. Pointing out the first bit doesn't imply actively working in opposition of the second part.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]