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YC's got a very, very fine line to tread if they're serious about China - with its limits on human rights and authoritarian tendencies, the Chinese government i

YC's got a very, very fine line to tread if they're serious about China - with its limits on human rights and authoritarian tendencies, the Chinese government is absolutely not to be trusted. I worry about what sort of concessions tech companies have made and will make to gain access to the Chinese market.

throwaway_9575 8y ago
I don't mean to be blunt, but YC, as an institution, doesn't really care about anything besides money. They're venture capitalists. That the CCP is putting Muslims in high-tech concentration camps is of little concern compared to how much they think they can make in the Chinese market.
- jumelles 8y ago
  That's why I feel compelled to speak up about this. There are things more important than money.
  - shard972 8y ago
    Not sure why that parent comment was flagged, he was just pointing out the fact that companies value profit, everything else is optional. Is that not allowed to be uttered around here anymore?
    - jumelles 8y ago
      There was also something about "Muslims in concentration camps" - but there's another link in this very thread talking about how Uyghurs are being put in camps by the PRC, so I'm not sure either how speaking truth to power got flagged.
crb002 8y ago
https://thediplomat.com/2018/05/uyghurs-victims-of-21st-century-concentration-camps/ https://thediplomat.com/2018/05/uyghurs-victims-of-21st-cent...
varsitywork 8y ago
Exactly. I am not sure what Sam Altman is up to here, but this may be something that Silicon Valley companies and the free world will regret deeply in the future. He mentions > to ensure that the benefits of that are fairly spread throughout humanity. Yes, but technologies at the hands of a dictatorship is dangerous. This morning, there was just a thread about Chinese surveillance/censorship technologies being sold to other countries. Lord help us if the Chinese government somehow gets its hands on a superior weapons tech, or smarter AI. He also says > Qi will also take over as the Head of YC Research, YC’s non-profit research lab. We've heard several prominent lawsuits in recent months on how Chinese nationals stolen and transfered US techs into Chinese companies (possibly government involvement). Qi Lu literally said "The Chinese government understands what AI can do, and they show a lot of commitment for sustained and long-term investment...AI is part of China’s national five-year plan, and just a few months ago, the Chinese government published a comprehensive white paper to call out a systematic investment in AI." https://venturebeat.com/2018/01/09/baidu-coo-says-chinas-government-will-help-the-country-dominate-ai/ https://venturebeat.com/2018/01/09/baidu-coo-says-chinas-gov.... We're literally handing the Chinese government some of the Western world's greatest knowledge and inventions. This is scary scary thing. I am not sure what YC is thinking, allowing Sam Altman to do this.
- shard972 8y ago
  > Lord help us if the Chinese government somehow gets its hands on a superior weapons tech, or smarter AI. Why wouldn't they get their hands on that? With companies like HPE existing as now defacto chinese companies I just don't see how anyone can see this as a if rather than a when. > We're literally handing the Chinese government some of the Western world's greatest knowledge and inventions. Isn't this great though? More innovation spread amongst the world. This is what liberalism tells us, that there is no distinction between people living under different nations. If we can make the lives of chinese citizens better like we use AI to make ours better, why should minor issues like government "stealing knowledge" (whatever that is) be some big issue?
  - jumelles 8y ago
    > why should minor issues like government "stealing knowledge" (whatever that is) be some big issue? Because that's not at all the only issue; the ruling party actively suppresses dissent, stifles speech, and allows little to no disagreement. Minorities and dissenters are locked away with no trial. Censorship is rampant. There's a lot more to worry about than just IP theft or corporate espionage.
ardy42 8y ago
> I worry about what sort of concessions tech companies have made and will make to gain access to the Chinese market. Especially since the PRC government is getting much more aggressive in forcing Western companies to kowtow to their political stances even in their operations outside of China. Mercedes-Benz was forced to apologize for posting a Dalai Lama quote on Instagram [1], and a Marriott employee was fired after he "liked" a post about Tibetan independence [2]. This happened despite both websites being blocked in China. The implications for companies with new Chinese operations that also operate an open web forum is left as an exercise for the reader. [1] https://www.dw.com/en/mercedes-bows-to-chinese-pressure-after-dalai-lama-instagram-post-prompts-outrage/a-42475537 https://www.dw.com/en/mercedes-bows-to-chinese-pressure-afte... [2] https://www.wsj.com/articles/marriott-employee-roy-jones-hit-like-then-china-got-mad-1520094910 https://www.wsj.com/articles/marriott-employee-roy-jones-hit...
- jumelles 8y ago
  Agreed 100%. To me it's madness that Marriott and Benz wouldn't stand up for the right to speak one's mind.
  - fsloth 8y ago
    I'm pretty sure Marriott and Benz stand up firsthand to their owners and in their list of priorities access to chinese markets is more important than human rights. Given our worship of capital I'm amazed global emancipation of slavery ever happened. But I suppose that was only because new financial markets and industrialization created lots of better opportunities for capital investment than slave labour force - hence the market for slaves dwindled.
    - jumelles 8y ago
      > I'm pretty sure Marriott and Benz stand up firsthand to their owners and in their list of priorities access to chinese markets is more important than human rights. That is indeed the problem.
  - google_censors 8y ago
thawab 8y ago
Every one wants to be part of the next Chinese startups, an incubator has less risk than other big corporations. Qi Lu knows technology and knows how to navigate his way with the Chinese government. Hopefully they can be part of the startup ecosystem in China.
nodesocket 8y ago
Not to mention their policies of stealing intellectual property and dumping steel and aluminum. Thankfully and as I expected the US tariffs have really hurt their stock market, meanwhile the US stock market is at near all time highs.
Leary 8y ago
Indeed, given the recent news in East Uyghurstan. I had to double check my calendar to see that it was not April 1st. Limits to human rights by a government is intolerable in the modern epoch. Anyone that uses a Chinese product is complicit in cultural genocide. If HN doesn't speak truth to power, who else will?
- angersock 8y ago
  Their job is to make money. Why people think otherwise is beyond me.
  - Leary 8y ago
    First they make money in China, then they'll copy what made them money to India, then to the western world. Sounds like a slippery slope to me. I saw a couple of sci-fi movies that showed this doesn't turn out well. [1] [1] https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1856101/ https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1856101/
  - uRreading2slow 8y ago
    > The greatest evil perpetrated is the evil committed by nobodies, that is, by human beings who refuse to be persons. -- Hannah Arendt You don't cease to be come a person responsible for what you say and do, fail to say and do, just because you pretend "you're a company". They don' thave the right to "just make money", and you don't have the right to excuse them. How you can think you are in any way still connected to intellectual or moral tradition is not beyond me at all, but that being wrong, the fact that you shat on any and all of the greats of the last 100 years, as well as millions of murdered people -- that seems utterly beyond you. You think you know them; they no longer know you.
peter_retief 8y ago
Markets have already given the Chinese regime enormous economic power, its easy to ignore the gross human rights violations if you have a cheap iphone and your own dignity isn't impaired. Beware the new colonial power.
client4 8y ago
I think this is a very American perspective; I'm American as well. It is very easy for us to forget our own human rights abuses, like bombing children in the Middle East, torture in Abu Ghraib, etc. etc. and focus on other countries as the "bad guys". America's leadership has made mistakes, China's leadership has made mistakes, but to use those mistakes to promote isolationism divides us as a global people. China runs their country differently. If YC can promote new startups in China, perhaps one day those startups will be the driving cause of unifying the world. Most citizens only loosely affiliate with their country. Many Chinese, like Americans, want to make their home and the world a better place. To remix from Richard Dawkins, A child is not an American child, not a Chinese child, but a child of American parents or a child of Chinese parents.
- remir 8y ago
  Many Chinese, like Americans, want to make their home and the world a better place How about respecting human rights? That would be a start. Technology can help for some things, but past a certain point, "making the world a better place" also imply policy changes.
  - client4 8y ago
    And what I'm saying is, my government doesn't respect human rights, but I as a citizen do. You're throwing the baby out with the bathwater arguing private US business shouldn't work with anyone in China because they must all be human rights abusers. /s
    - remir 8y ago
      You seriously think this is about making the world a better place? It's about money. Private businesses don't care about Chinese citizens. They care about cold hard cash. Now, am I saying private US businesses shouldn't work with anyone in China? Not really. All I'm sayng is: at the end of the day, technology can only do so much. Eventually, policy must change also and this is valid for any country, including the US.

throwaway_9575 8y ago

I don't mean to be blunt, but YC, as an institution, doesn't really care about anything besides money. They're venture capitalists. That the CCP is putting Muslims in high-tech concentration camps is of little concern compared to how much they think they can make in the Chinese market.

jumelles 8y ago
That's why I feel compelled to speak up about this. There are things more important than money.
- shard972 8y ago
  Not sure why that parent comment was flagged, he was just pointing out the fact that companies value profit, everything else is optional. Is that not allowed to be uttered around here anymore?
  - jumelles 8y ago
    There was also something about "Muslims in concentration camps" - but there's another link in this very thread talking about how Uyghurs are being put in camps by the PRC, so I'm not sure either how speaking truth to power got flagged.

crb002 8y ago

https://thediplomat.com/2018/05/uyghurs-victims-of-21st-century-concentration-camps/ https://thediplomat.com/2018/05/uyghurs-victims-of-21st-cent...

varsitywork 8y ago

Exactly. I am not sure what Sam Altman is up to here, but this may be something that Silicon Valley companies and the free world will regret deeply in the future. He mentions > to ensure that the benefits of that are fairly spread throughout humanity. Yes, but technologies at the hands of a dictatorship is dangerous. This morning, there was just a thread about Chinese surveillance/censorship technologies being sold to other countries. Lord help us if the Chinese government somehow gets its hands on a superior weapons tech, or smarter AI. He also says > Qi will also take over as the Head of YC Research, YC’s non-profit research lab. We've heard several prominent lawsuits in recent months on how Chinese nationals stolen and transfered US techs into Chinese companies (possibly government involvement). Qi Lu literally said "The Chinese government understands what AI can do, and they show a lot of commitment for sustained and long-term investment...AI is part of China’s national five-year plan, and just a few months ago, the Chinese government published a comprehensive white paper to call out a systematic investment in AI." https://venturebeat.com/2018/01/09/baidu-coo-says-chinas-government-will-help-the-country-dominate-ai/ https://venturebeat.com/2018/01/09/baidu-coo-says-chinas-gov.... We're literally handing the Chinese government some of the Western world's greatest knowledge and inventions. This is scary scary thing. I am not sure what YC is thinking, allowing Sam Altman to do this.

shard972 8y ago
> Lord help us if the Chinese government somehow gets its hands on a superior weapons tech, or smarter AI. Why wouldn't they get their hands on that? With companies like HPE existing as now defacto chinese companies I just don't see how anyone can see this as a if rather than a when. > We're literally handing the Chinese government some of the Western world's greatest knowledge and inventions. Isn't this great though? More innovation spread amongst the world. This is what liberalism tells us, that there is no distinction between people living under different nations. If we can make the lives of chinese citizens better like we use AI to make ours better, why should minor issues like government "stealing knowledge" (whatever that is) be some big issue?
- jumelles 8y ago
  > why should minor issues like government "stealing knowledge" (whatever that is) be some big issue? Because that's not at all the only issue; the ruling party actively suppresses dissent, stifles speech, and allows little to no disagreement. Minorities and dissenters are locked away with no trial. Censorship is rampant. There's a lot more to worry about than just IP theft or corporate espionage.

ardy42 8y ago

> I worry about what sort of concessions tech companies have made and will make to gain access to the Chinese market. Especially since the PRC government is getting much more aggressive in forcing Western companies to kowtow to their political stances even in their operations outside of China. Mercedes-Benz was forced to apologize for posting a Dalai Lama quote on Instagram [1], and a Marriott employee was fired after he "liked" a post about Tibetan independence [2]. This happened despite both websites being blocked in China. The implications for companies with new Chinese operations that also operate an open web forum is left as an exercise for the reader. [1] https://www.dw.com/en/mercedes-bows-to-chinese-pressure-after-dalai-lama-instagram-post-prompts-outrage/a-42475537 https://www.dw.com/en/mercedes-bows-to-chinese-pressure-afte... [2] https://www.wsj.com/articles/marriott-employee-roy-jones-hit-like-then-china-got-mad-1520094910 https://www.wsj.com/articles/marriott-employee-roy-jones-hit...

jumelles 8y ago
Agreed 100%. To me it's madness that Marriott and Benz wouldn't stand up for the right to speak one's mind.
- fsloth 8y ago
  I'm pretty sure Marriott and Benz stand up firsthand to their owners and in their list of priorities access to chinese markets is more important than human rights. Given our worship of capital I'm amazed global emancipation of slavery ever happened. But I suppose that was only because new financial markets and industrialization created lots of better opportunities for capital investment than slave labour force - hence the market for slaves dwindled.
  - jumelles 8y ago
    > I'm pretty sure Marriott and Benz stand up firsthand to their owners and in their list of priorities access to chinese markets is more important than human rights. That is indeed the problem.
- google_censors 8y ago

thawab 8y ago

Every one wants to be part of the next Chinese startups, an incubator has less risk than other big corporations. Qi Lu knows technology and knows how to navigate his way with the Chinese government. Hopefully they can be part of the startup ecosystem in China.

nodesocket 8y ago

Not to mention their policies of stealing intellectual property and dumping steel and aluminum. Thankfully and as I expected the US tariffs have really hurt their stock market, meanwhile the US stock market is at near all time highs.

Leary 8y ago

Indeed, given the recent news in East Uyghurstan. I had to double check my calendar to see that it was not April 1st. Limits to human rights by a government is intolerable in the modern epoch. Anyone that uses a Chinese product is complicit in cultural genocide. If HN doesn't speak truth to power, who else will?

angersock 8y ago
Their job is to make money. Why people think otherwise is beyond me.
- Leary 8y ago
  First they make money in China, then they'll copy what made them money to India, then to the western world. Sounds like a slippery slope to me. I saw a couple of sci-fi movies that showed this doesn't turn out well. [1] [1] https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1856101/ https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1856101/
- uRreading2slow 8y ago
  > The greatest evil perpetrated is the evil committed by nobodies, that is, by human beings who refuse to be persons. -- Hannah Arendt You don't cease to be come a person responsible for what you say and do, fail to say and do, just because you pretend "you're a company". They don' thave the right to "just make money", and you don't have the right to excuse them. How you can think you are in any way still connected to intellectual or moral tradition is not beyond me at all, but that being wrong, the fact that you shat on any and all of the greats of the last 100 years, as well as millions of murdered people -- that seems utterly beyond you. You think you know them; they no longer know you.

peter_retief 8y ago

Markets have already given the Chinese regime enormous economic power, its easy to ignore the gross human rights violations if you have a cheap iphone and your own dignity isn't impaired. Beware the new colonial power.

client4 8y ago

I think this is a very American perspective; I'm American as well. It is very easy for us to forget our own human rights abuses, like bombing children in the Middle East, torture in Abu Ghraib, etc. etc. and focus on other countries as the "bad guys". America's leadership has made mistakes, China's leadership has made mistakes, but to use those mistakes to promote isolationism divides us as a global people. China runs their country differently. If YC can promote new startups in China, perhaps one day those startups will be the driving cause of unifying the world. Most citizens only loosely affiliate with their country. Many Chinese, like Americans, want to make their home and the world a better place. To remix from Richard Dawkins, A child is not an American child, not a Chinese child, but a child of American parents or a child of Chinese parents.

remir 8y ago
Many Chinese, like Americans, want to make their home and the world a better place How about respecting human rights? That would be a start. Technology can help for some things, but past a certain point, "making the world a better place" also imply policy changes.
- client4 8y ago
  And what I'm saying is, my government doesn't respect human rights, but I as a citizen do. You're throwing the baby out with the bathwater arguing private US business shouldn't work with anyone in China because they must all be human rights abusers. /s
  - remir 8y ago
    You seriously think this is about making the world a better place? It's about money. Private businesses don't care about Chinese citizens. They care about cold hard cash. Now, am I saying private US businesses shouldn't work with anyone in China? Not really. All I'm sayng is: at the end of the day, technology can only do so much. Eventually, policy must change also and this is valid for any country, including the US.