4 ms·

Sure, let's imagine a world without elevators. > How many people want to climb 20 stories > of stairs every day of their life. I'd guess a lot. How lo

by avar 8y ago

Sure, let's imagine a world without elevators. > How many people want to climb 20 stories > of stairs every day of their life. I'd guess a lot. How long does it take you to climb 20 stories if you're having to do it every single day of your life so you're used to it? Let's say a generous 10 seconds per floor, so that's around 3 and a half minutes. Just waiting for and taking the elevator will easily take a minute at least. So we're left with just over 2 minutes. This is on the order of time that it takes many people to walk from their parked car to the front door at work, or even just to park their car! That would be nothing compared to the alternative of there being 1-3 floor houses everywhere, so you'd need to commute even further than that. > nevermind the transportation of equipment. Almost all of the tall houses in Amsterdam built in pre-elevator times have a hook on the top floor that can be used to hoist cargo up. Some similar arrangement could be worked out for modern houses if they didn't have elevators.

Sharlin 8y ago
> How long does it take you to climb 20 stories if you're having to do it every single day of your life so you're used to it? Let's say a generous 10 seconds per floor, so that's around 3 and a half minutes. People would certainly be more fit in such a world. In ours, climbing 20 stories is not something many people can do at all, never mind do willingly every day. But even for a fit person, 20 stories at 10sec/story is definitely not "generous", more like a great athletic achievement given how strenuous it is to climb stairs compared to walking or running on flat ground. Gravity is a bitch.
- WalterBright 8y ago
  I'd try to run up the 8 floors. Never made it past 6 without having to stop before my heart exploded.
- mirimir 8y ago
  Well, I'm an old man, in not such great shape. And I can go up five floors in less than a minute. If I'm tired, I just walk up, two steps per stride, with help using the hand rail. That's actually easier for me than going up one step per stride. And going down is harder on my knees.
  - Sharlin 8y ago
    Climbing five floors is qualitatively different from twenty. You can do the former anaerobically easily enough, but the latter is firmly in the aerobic regime unless you're an Olympic-level 400m sprinter.
    - mirimir 8y ago
      Sure. So you rest a minute or two. But tell you what. I'll try the experiment later today.
    - anticensor 8y ago
      Even an olympic sprinter will not be able to climb for 100m in anaerobic regime.
  - TheCoelacanth 8y ago
    The difference between five floors and twenty is roughly the same as the difference between a 10k and a marathon.
masklinn 8y ago
> I'd guess a lot. Absolutely not. Before elevators most buildings would stop at around 5 stories. Climbing 20 stories is not just time-consuming[0], it's also quite tiring, you're dragging your own mass 60m upwards on a very steep slope. And that's basically discarding older adults entirely, according to "Functional predictors of stair-climbing speed in older adults" individuals ascend about 1.3 steps per second for 8~10 steps. > That would be nothing compared to the alternative of there being 1-3 floor houses everywhere, so you'd need to commute even further than that. The alternative would be necessarily rethinking the entire mess and either creating much wider buildings or going back to a much more decentralised model. > This is on the order of time that it takes many people to walk from their parked car to the front door at work, or even just to park their car! Walking level ground and climbing stairs is not the same effort at all. [0] and 10 seconds per floor is absolutely not generous, it corresponds to a high-cadence stair-stepper setting (100 steps/mn, assuming 16 steps/flight which is about what you get in a residential building, an office building would be 18~20 steps/flight)
- avar 8y ago
  > Before elevators most buildings would stop at around 5 stories. And before elevators housing prices and density aren't what they are now. You'd find a lot of people willing to traverse 20 stories if it meant not living a 30 minute commute away. So we really don't have any real-world data for this. > Walking level ground and climbing stairs is not the same effort at all. Sure. But I think my point of this comparing favorably to commutes stands. Also, given the statistics of adults who under-exercise this is a win-win, traversing stairs at every opportunity is a great way to get a workout in. > 10 seconds per floor is absolutely not generous Those 10 seconds per floor was probably overly optimistic. FWIW I live on the 4th floor and (I just timed it) it takes me around 35 seconds to go up from the ground floor at the pace I usually do, and would be comfortable maintaining for 5x that distance. I take every second step. That's 8.75 seconds/floor. > which is about what you get in a residential building, an office building[...] Keep in mind that those office buildings have more distance between floors partly because they're designed in a world where the elevator exists. If we're supposing that elevators hadn't been invented there would be a market pressure to construct buildings that made it easier to go up the stairs.
Johnny555 8y ago
"How many people want to climb 20 stories... I'd guess a lot" I'd guess very few -- I work in a 23 story office building (on the 20th floor, coindidentally), and from my desk I can see the stairway door in the hallway. Other than maintenance staff, I don't remember seeing a single person use that door. We have another office on the 15th floor, and I know of no one that uses the stairs to travel the 5 floors from office to office. So I think the number of people that want to climb 20 stories by stairs every day is very low.
- WalterBright 8y ago
  I used to work on the 8th floor of an office building. I took the stairs. Granted, I was the only one, and 23 is 3x that. I'd still probably take the stairs and thereby skip the jogging. I'd also prefer the stairs to a long walk everywhere. I live 270 ft up a hill, and regularly walk up. At 10 feet per story, that's 27 floors. I'm also the only one on the hill who walks up it.
- city41 8y ago
  I'm guessing this building is laid out such that you never leave the floor you're based on? If I need to go up or down about 3 flights, I prefer stairs over waiting for an elevator.
- jessaustin 8y ago
  Wow there must be some vacancies in that building. When I've worked in similarly-sized buildings with full offices, the wait for the elevator was such that no one would have considered using it to descend 5 floors. Most people would have taken the stairs ascending as well.
oh_sigh 8y ago
Just make sure you don't leave the office for lunch, or to run an errand, or for a meeting in another building - because if you do you will be climbing more like 60-80 stories per day.
feverfew 8y ago
Have you climbed twenty stories at once? As someone who is asthmatic it is incredibly hard for me to do this in one go without reaching for the inhaler, and I am a fairly active person. Anyone who does any amount of floors above 5 will find themselves tired. And then think about the disabled and elderly? Not having an elevator relegates them to the first floor, meaning the government will have to impose that they belong to disabled people, and likely resulting in an abnormally high rent/mortgage unless their are rent controls or the flat itself is owned by the government, which you can't always rely on. Also I wouldn't rely on a hook to hook much modern stuff upwards, for health and safety it wouldn't be allowed. In fact, why not just have an elevator? Then you wouldn't need a professional to hoist the cargo!! I have a feeling the people who installed elevators in buildings thought it through.

by avar 8y ago

Sharlin 8y ago

> How long does it take you to climb 20 stories if you're having to do it every single day of your life so you're used to it? Let's say a generous 10 seconds per floor, so that's around 3 and a half minutes. People would certainly be more fit in such a world. In ours, climbing 20 stories is not something many people can do at all, never mind do willingly every day. But even for a fit person, 20 stories at 10sec/story is definitely not "generous", more like a great athletic achievement given how strenuous it is to climb stairs compared to walking or running on flat ground. Gravity is a bitch.

WalterBright 8y ago
I'd try to run up the 8 floors. Never made it past 6 without having to stop before my heart exploded.
mirimir 8y ago
Well, I'm an old man, in not such great shape. And I can go up five floors in less than a minute. If I'm tired, I just walk up, two steps per stride, with help using the hand rail. That's actually easier for me than going up one step per stride. And going down is harder on my knees.
- Sharlin 8y ago
  Climbing five floors is qualitatively different from twenty. You can do the former anaerobically easily enough, but the latter is firmly in the aerobic regime unless you're an Olympic-level 400m sprinter.
  - mirimir 8y ago
    Sure. So you rest a minute or two. But tell you what. I'll try the experiment later today.
  - anticensor 8y ago
    Even an olympic sprinter will not be able to climb for 100m in anaerobic regime.
- TheCoelacanth 8y ago
  The difference between five floors and twenty is roughly the same as the difference between a 10k and a marathon.

masklinn 8y ago

> I'd guess a lot. Absolutely not. Before elevators most buildings would stop at around 5 stories. Climbing 20 stories is not just time-consuming[0], it's also quite tiring, you're dragging your own mass 60m upwards on a very steep slope. And that's basically discarding older adults entirely, according to "Functional predictors of stair-climbing speed in older adults" individuals ascend about 1.3 steps per second for 8~10 steps. > That would be nothing compared to the alternative of there being 1-3 floor houses everywhere, so you'd need to commute even further than that. The alternative would be necessarily rethinking the entire mess and either creating much wider buildings or going back to a much more decentralised model. > This is on the order of time that it takes many people to walk from their parked car to the front door at work, or even just to park their car! Walking level ground and climbing stairs is not the same effort at all. [0] and 10 seconds per floor is absolutely not generous, it corresponds to a high-cadence stair-stepper setting (100 steps/mn, assuming 16 steps/flight which is about what you get in a residential building, an office building would be 18~20 steps/flight)

avar 8y ago
> Before elevators most buildings would stop at around 5 stories. And before elevators housing prices and density aren't what they are now. You'd find a lot of people willing to traverse 20 stories if it meant not living a 30 minute commute away. So we really don't have any real-world data for this. > Walking level ground and climbing stairs is not the same effort at all. Sure. But I think my point of this comparing favorably to commutes stands. Also, given the statistics of adults who under-exercise this is a win-win, traversing stairs at every opportunity is a great way to get a workout in. > 10 seconds per floor is absolutely not generous Those 10 seconds per floor was probably overly optimistic. FWIW I live on the 4th floor and (I just timed it) it takes me around 35 seconds to go up from the ground floor at the pace I usually do, and would be comfortable maintaining for 5x that distance. I take every second step. That's 8.75 seconds/floor. > which is about what you get in a residential building, an office building[...] Keep in mind that those office buildings have more distance between floors partly because they're designed in a world where the elevator exists. If we're supposing that elevators hadn't been invented there would be a market pressure to construct buildings that made it easier to go up the stairs.

Johnny555 8y ago

"How many people want to climb 20 stories... I'd guess a lot" I'd guess very few -- I work in a 23 story office building (on the 20th floor, coindidentally), and from my desk I can see the stairway door in the hallway. Other than maintenance staff, I don't remember seeing a single person use that door. We have another office on the 15th floor, and I know of no one that uses the stairs to travel the 5 floors from office to office. So I think the number of people that want to climb 20 stories by stairs every day is very low.

WalterBright 8y ago
I used to work on the 8th floor of an office building. I took the stairs. Granted, I was the only one, and 23 is 3x that. I'd still probably take the stairs and thereby skip the jogging. I'd also prefer the stairs to a long walk everywhere. I live 270 ft up a hill, and regularly walk up. At 10 feet per story, that's 27 floors. I'm also the only one on the hill who walks up it.
city41 8y ago
I'm guessing this building is laid out such that you never leave the floor you're based on? If I need to go up or down about 3 flights, I prefer stairs over waiting for an elevator.
jessaustin 8y ago
Wow there must be some vacancies in that building. When I've worked in similarly-sized buildings with full offices, the wait for the elevator was such that no one would have considered using it to descend 5 floors. Most people would have taken the stairs ascending as well.

oh_sigh 8y ago

Just make sure you don't leave the office for lunch, or to run an errand, or for a meeting in another building - because if you do you will be climbing more like 60-80 stories per day.

feverfew 8y ago

Have you climbed twenty stories at once? As someone who is asthmatic it is incredibly hard for me to do this in one go without reaching for the inhaler, and I am a fairly active person. Anyone who does any amount of floors above 5 will find themselves tired. And then think about the disabled and elderly? Not having an elevator relegates them to the first floor, meaning the government will have to impose that they belong to disabled people, and likely resulting in an abnormally high rent/mortgage unless their are rent controls or the flat itself is owned by the government, which you can't always rely on. Also I wouldn't rely on a hook to hook much modern stuff upwards, for health and safety it wouldn't be allowed. In fact, why not just have an elevator? Then you wouldn't need a professional to hoist the cargo!! I have a feeling the people who installed elevators in buildings thought it through.