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Politics is rooted in tribalism; I'm not sure what your point even is. There is no trap; tribalism (collectivism) is the foundation of a nation. Trying to resi

by fein 8y ago

Politics is rooted in tribalism; I'm not sure what your point even is. There is no trap; tribalism (collectivism) is the foundation of a nation. Trying to resist it is doomed to failure.

lotyrin 8y ago
I suppose we are both confused then. Politics is rooted solely in policy: if we do or don't form this or that policy, are the subjects of our policies better or worse off? Anything that distracts from a process of objective assessment and consensus-finding in the process of forming said policy means we fail to form the correct policies and so reflects an inefficiency.
- fein 8y ago
  > Politics is rooted solely in policy And where does that policy come from? The collective. A "correct" policy is whatever the tribe deems is correct.
  - lotyrin 8y ago
    I doubt you propose we abandon the concept of there being objective truth, or any possible way for diverse groups to find consensus, but what are you proposing? If I use simulated annealing to arrive at an optimal schedule for some processing task -- is that not a policy because there is no collective of identities or their feeling/opinion involved? Certainly not. The correct fiscal policies for my HOA are whichever ones that keep the roofs maintained vs the ones that do not, even if that is a concept that's not popular among with the board right now. A policy is a policy -- this is what we are doing -- correctness is derived from the results as filtered through some value function, which is derived not from agreeableness but some set of value-axioms. Obviously, at human scale, we can differ on what those axioms are because they are axiomatic, but that's not the same thing as policy, and it's not what's happening in the typical political discourse -- people will frequently have very similar axioms for what is valuable in the outcome of policy but get distracted about other concerns and fail to find consensus.
    - fein 8y ago
      A sufficiently diverse group will indeed fail to find consensus. That is something that can only be reached when diversity is low. I'm proposing we approach policy setting with a basis in reality instead of trying to project an inhuman value function to humans. People are not driven by pure rationale, rather emotion and instinct.
      - lotyrin 8y ago
        That is a very interesting perspective and I think it helps me understand a few issues in a new light. Thank you for sharing it.

by fein 8y ago

Politics is rooted in tribalism; I'm not sure what your point even is. There is no trap; tribalism (collectivism) is the foundation of a nation. Trying to resist it is doomed to failure.

lotyrin 8y ago

I suppose we are both confused then. Politics is rooted solely in policy: if we do or don't form this or that policy, are the subjects of our policies better or worse off? Anything that distracts from a process of objective assessment and consensus-finding in the process of forming said policy means we fail to form the correct policies and so reflects an inefficiency.

fein 8y ago
> Politics is rooted solely in policy And where does that policy come from? The collective. A "correct" policy is whatever the tribe deems is correct.
- lotyrin 8y ago
  I doubt you propose we abandon the concept of there being objective truth, or any possible way for diverse groups to find consensus, but what are you proposing? If I use simulated annealing to arrive at an optimal schedule for some processing task -- is that not a policy because there is no collective of identities or their feeling/opinion involved? Certainly not. The correct fiscal policies for my HOA are whichever ones that keep the roofs maintained vs the ones that do not, even if that is a concept that's not popular among with the board right now. A policy is a policy -- this is what we are doing -- correctness is derived from the results as filtered through some value function, which is derived not from agreeableness but some set of value-axioms. Obviously, at human scale, we can differ on what those axioms are because they are axiomatic, but that's not the same thing as policy, and it's not what's happening in the typical political discourse -- people will frequently have very similar axioms for what is valuable in the outcome of policy but get distracted about other concerns and fail to find consensus.
  - fein 8y ago
    A sufficiently diverse group will indeed fail to find consensus. That is something that can only be reached when diversity is low. I'm proposing we approach policy setting with a basis in reality instead of trying to project an inhuman value function to humans. People are not driven by pure rationale, rather emotion and instinct.
    - lotyrin 8y ago
      That is a very interesting perspective and I think it helps me understand a few issues in a new light. Thank you for sharing it.