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> “you ought to own the stuff you possess.” That is the base that Richard Stallman created for the open source movement. You should own your own hardware, and

by kartan 8y ago

> “you ought to own the stuff you possess.” That is the base that Richard Stallman created for the open source movement. You should own your own hardware, and the only way of fulfilling that is to own the software that makes it run. And I also thought that this is common sense at least for the past generation of developers. I am not so sure how much the message has been lost, but it is not so strong as it used to be.

zrobotics 8y ago
I think the current fad of everything being offered 'as a service' has changed many people's minds. Can't find a link, but I've seen people on this website claim that electron apps that are just a web page (and thus don't work offline) are better for Linux on the desktop than actual native applications. Sure, they do mean that cross-platform is essentially free, but you have to rely on someone else's computer for them to work. Which is one of the big reasons I'm so desperate to move away from fusion360 for personal projects. I'm fine with closed source provided the model isn't that restrictive, I certainly have no problems with sublime text. Edit:I needed to be clearer, I know fusion isn't electron, but I've had no luck at all using it offline. Very rarely will it work. And unless things changed in the last 6 months, the Github desktop app can't commit locally without an internet connection.
- saagarjha 8y ago
  > the Github desktop app can't commit locally without an internet connection Wait, what? Why?
  - jpindar 8y ago
    FWIW, BitBucket's app can.
- RussianCow 8y ago
  > Can't find a link, but I've seen people on this website claim that electron apps that are just a web page (and thus don't work offline) are better for Linux on the desktop than actual native applications. Sure, they do mean that cross-platform is essentially free, but you have to rely on someone else's computer for them to work. This is false, at least in the way you're thinking. Electron apps are written with web technologies, yes, but they generally don't load their UI via the web; all HTML/CSS/JS lives locally on your machine. I don't use the GitHub app, but if it's true that it can't commit without an internet connection, that's just bad design, as opposed to something inherent with Electron.
- kwk1 8y ago
  > Which is one of the big reasons I'm so desperate to move away from fusion360 for personal projects. I understand the need here and would humbly suggest trying to support development of FreeCAD for this reason. - FreeCAD Dev
hugey010 8y ago
I got to see Stallman talk at a large state school a few years back. Almost everyone, including myself, thought the guy meant well but had really lost his mind. It wasn't just the Emacs song, but how he spent so much of his time and energy understanding and maintaining all of his freedoms. Thinking back, it's like we forgot our rights aren't guaranteed and didn't need to be protected or even considered at those levels. We were very naive and short-sighted.
- wott 8y ago
  Those companies (and capitalism in general) excel at identifying your sloths (as any other vice), encouraging and developing them in order to turn them into money. They thrive on such mechanisms.
- kartan 8y ago
  > Almost everyone, including myself, thought the guy meant well but had really lost his mind. Yep. I know a guy that hang with him for a while and Stallman behaviour was already off. That was years ago. But the original idea it is still relevant today. It is important to detach the message from the messenger. > Thinking back, it's like we forgot our rights aren't guaranteed and didn't need to be protected or even considered at those levels. Yes. I think that the success of the open source movement makes it commercially important and the message got diluted. There was a lot of pushback against LGPL and GPL licenses at that time. Nowadays people contribute to projects that any company can take on and convert to a closed product. Just put some effort in some improvements - a nicer interface and some documentation - and the freemium version will overtake the free version. GPL was designed to make that move impossible unless the original company owned all the code, as then it can change the license whenever they want.
ChristianBundy 8y ago
> That is the base that Richard Stallman created for the open source movement. I understand what you mean, but RMS is very against "open source": https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/open-source-misses-the-point.html https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/open-source-misses-the-point....
TulliusCicero 8y ago
Why though? I'm definitely of the sort that doesn't buy into Stallman's philosophy at all. What's the practical negative impact that I ought to be feeling from engaging in commerce with the usual suspects: Google, Amazon, Facebook, Microsoft, etc.? Because to me, it just looks like the (mostly potential/future) downsides are massively outweighed by the (mostly actual/current) upsides.
- kartan 8y ago
  > Because to me, it just looks like the (mostly potential/future) downsides are massively outweighed by the (mostly actual/current) upsides. Yes. That is true for most things. Eat fatty and sugar-rich food, have pleasure now pay it later. Drink a lot of alcohol, have fun now pay the consequences later. Burn fossil fuels have cheap energy now have catastrophic consequences later. Spend all money now, not have savings in the future. You are prioritizing current convenience against future consequences. That is a very human thing to do.
  - TulliusCicero 8y ago
    Your examples are completely different. Eating a crappy diet now has very well-known, basically deterministic consequences. Ditto for drinking too much or burning oil or blowing all your money. There's no question what will happen if you do these things. Most of the complaints around big companies seem to be around things they might do (e.g. Amazon could gain monopoly power and raise prices to exorbitant levels) but haven't yet done, and could easily end up never doing.

by kartan 8y ago

zrobotics 8y ago

I think the current fad of everything being offered 'as a service' has changed many people's minds. Can't find a link, but I've seen people on this website claim that electron apps that are just a web page (and thus don't work offline) are better for Linux on the desktop than actual native applications. Sure, they do mean that cross-platform is essentially free, but you have to rely on someone else's computer for them to work. Which is one of the big reasons I'm so desperate to move away from fusion360 for personal projects. I'm fine with closed source provided the model isn't that restrictive, I certainly have no problems with sublime text. Edit:I needed to be clearer, I know fusion isn't electron, but I've had no luck at all using it offline. Very rarely will it work. And unless things changed in the last 6 months, the Github desktop app can't commit locally without an internet connection.

saagarjha 8y ago
> the Github desktop app can't commit locally without an internet connection Wait, what? Why?
- jpindar 8y ago
  FWIW, BitBucket's app can.
RussianCow 8y ago
> Can't find a link, but I've seen people on this website claim that electron apps that are just a web page (and thus don't work offline) are better for Linux on the desktop than actual native applications. Sure, they do mean that cross-platform is essentially free, but you have to rely on someone else's computer for them to work. This is false, at least in the way you're thinking. Electron apps are written with web technologies, yes, but they generally don't load their UI via the web; all HTML/CSS/JS lives locally on your machine. I don't use the GitHub app, but if it's true that it can't commit without an internet connection, that's just bad design, as opposed to something inherent with Electron.
kwk1 8y ago
> Which is one of the big reasons I'm so desperate to move away from fusion360 for personal projects. I understand the need here and would humbly suggest trying to support development of FreeCAD for this reason. - FreeCAD Dev

hugey010 8y ago

I got to see Stallman talk at a large state school a few years back. Almost everyone, including myself, thought the guy meant well but had really lost his mind. It wasn't just the Emacs song, but how he spent so much of his time and energy understanding and maintaining all of his freedoms. Thinking back, it's like we forgot our rights aren't guaranteed and didn't need to be protected or even considered at those levels. We were very naive and short-sighted.

wott 8y ago
Those companies (and capitalism in general) excel at identifying your sloths (as any other vice), encouraging and developing them in order to turn them into money. They thrive on such mechanisms.
kartan 8y ago
> Almost everyone, including myself, thought the guy meant well but had really lost his mind. Yep. I know a guy that hang with him for a while and Stallman behaviour was already off. That was years ago. But the original idea it is still relevant today. It is important to detach the message from the messenger. > Thinking back, it's like we forgot our rights aren't guaranteed and didn't need to be protected or even considered at those levels. Yes. I think that the success of the open source movement makes it commercially important and the message got diluted. There was a lot of pushback against LGPL and GPL licenses at that time. Nowadays people contribute to projects that any company can take on and convert to a closed product. Just put some effort in some improvements - a nicer interface and some documentation - and the freemium version will overtake the free version. GPL was designed to make that move impossible unless the original company owned all the code, as then it can change the license whenever they want.

ChristianBundy 8y ago

> That is the base that Richard Stallman created for the open source movement. I understand what you mean, but RMS is very against "open source": https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/open-source-misses-the-point.html https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/open-source-misses-the-point....

TulliusCicero 8y ago

Why though? I'm definitely of the sort that doesn't buy into Stallman's philosophy at all. What's the practical negative impact that I ought to be feeling from engaging in commerce with the usual suspects: Google, Amazon, Facebook, Microsoft, etc.? Because to me, it just looks like the (mostly potential/future) downsides are massively outweighed by the (mostly actual/current) upsides.

kartan 8y ago
> Because to me, it just looks like the (mostly potential/future) downsides are massively outweighed by the (mostly actual/current) upsides. Yes. That is true for most things. Eat fatty and sugar-rich food, have pleasure now pay it later. Drink a lot of alcohol, have fun now pay the consequences later. Burn fossil fuels have cheap energy now have catastrophic consequences later. Spend all money now, not have savings in the future. You are prioritizing current convenience against future consequences. That is a very human thing to do.
- TulliusCicero 8y ago
  Your examples are completely different. Eating a crappy diet now has very well-known, basically deterministic consequences. Ditto for drinking too much or burning oil or blowing all your money. There's no question what will happen if you do these things. Most of the complaints around big companies seem to be around things they might do (e.g. Amazon could gain monopoly power and raise prices to exorbitant levels) but haven't yet done, and could easily end up never doing.