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I'd note that all the feminists were fine with Title IX star chambers with oppressive rules that hampered a good defense... As long as it could be a cudgel to b

I'd note that all the feminists were fine with Title IX star chambers with oppressive rules that hampered a good defense... As long as it could be a cudgel to be used against "misogyny" and "patriarchy". They are only unhappy now that someone they value is under the same rules.

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metalliqaz 8y ago
So much this.
moate 8y ago
Hello, I'm a feminist. Not unhappy that people who are committing sexual crimes are being brought to justice. Your wide brush is counterproductive to the "logical and open" discussion here. The whole point of the article that you read in its entirety and internalized before commenting upon it was that this is difficult for some people to accept: a champion of women's rights was perpetrating the crimes she seemed to be fighting against. Reconciling these truths is difficult for some people, and some people who worked closely with this woman will come to defense of her character as they knew her. Hypocrites abound. In fact everyone holds some conflicting views/acts in ways that work against their self interest. It's human nature. But not everyone who you disagree with is a hypocrite. Hell,some of them aren't even objectively wrong! But if you only exist in an in-group vs. out-group mindset you're going to miss some great points. TL;dr- Title IX is great, and it seems like this woman is both a renowned academic AND a sexual abuser.
- newswriter99 8y ago
  I'm curious as to how often you go out of your way to criticize the lack of logical and open discussion in feminist circles. I'm in the journalism industry, and have seen time and time again one-sided mob psychology suffocate anyone even considering to constructively criticize the movement. If you can't admit just how extremist and tribal the current atmosphere is, I don't think you're going to be able to appreciate the perspective of the person you're replying to.
  - moate 8y ago
    Is "when I think they're wrong" often enough? You're just restating my point back to me. Remember when I said this: "Hypocrites abound. In fact everyone holds some conflicting views/acts in ways that work against their self interest. It's human nature. But not everyone who you disagree with is a hypocrite. Hell,some of them aren't even objectively wrong! But if you only exist in an in-group vs. out-group mindset you're going to miss some great points." That's the same thing as admitting that tribal behavior is a problem. My whole POINT is that the tribal behavior/generalized statements (like "all feminists") creates a breakdown in the discussion.
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  - beat 8y ago
    As a journalist who presumably is covering feminism, are you familiar with the ongoing back-and-forth between second wave feminism, third wave feminism, and intersectional feminism? Do you know what a TERF is? I see a lot of healthy debate and constructive criticism within feminism.
- headmelted 8y ago
  I think you've distilled the debate perfectly to it's uncomfortable and anachronistic point. I think what it comes down to is that some people (myself included) are finding it hard to give the benefit of the doubt here when the character defence being offered so closely parallels what's been said in the past in defence of brazen male perverts. That said, I think you've hit the nail on the head regarding in and out groups, and we should simply be looking at this as: a person has been wronged here, what's the appropriate response? There's a reason the law as written doesn't discriminate offences on race or gender.
- patrickg_zill 8y ago
  Read up on Erin Pizzey, if you truly have a "logical and open" mind on this subject.
  - moate 8y ago
    Is there anything specific I'm supposed to feel about her to show my open mind? Seems like a nice enough woman who primarily earned her living selling books. Public opinion turned on her, she couldn't sell her books, and she's had a rough go of things. Shelters for victims of domestic violence are a public good, and women can be abusive. Not all feminists are nice people, some of them have political agendas that are meant to replace a patriarchy with a matriarchy and her opinions didn't jive with that, so they likely put pressure to silence her voice. I'm still a feminist though, and other than learning one woman's story I genuinely don't understand what was supposed to happen here.
    - patrickg_zill 8y ago
      A woman who started the very first DV shelter in the world, then was ostracized by the entirety of mainstream feminism for stating forbidden truths. This isn't a debate between 2 equal factions, as you've seemed to cast it: it was a Stalinist style purge of all who didn't hold the correct opinions; with the same people who committed the purge, still in control today.
      - moate 8y ago
        A group of people did a bad thing to a lady. There were many people in the group and they had more power/agency which they leveraged against this lady for reasons I can only speculate on because I wasn't really alive at the time or invited to the meetings. In all likelihood I wouldn't get along very well with these people. They're part of a group I don't consider myself associating with. I'm still a feminist, and I still don't understand why I can't be a feminist and also believe the story I just told. The fact that "mainstream feminism" ostracized Pizzey has nothing to do with my personal beliefs. I guess I'm not a mainstream feminist? Is this mainstream?: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2017/01/19/feminism-intersectionality-racism-sexism-class/96633750/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2017/01/19/feminism-inte... This is pretty close to me. FWIW, I think very few people exist as absolutes but typically shades of grey. IDK what "good" or "bad" people are anymore, just good or bad actions. Promoting equality is something I find to be a good action. That is what I feel feminism represents (or should represent, or represents to me).
rosser 8y ago
I'm so glad we can put aside our stereotypes and narratives and have constructive, un-hyperbolic discussions about these nuanced topics on this site.
- patrickg_zill 8y ago
  Name a prominent feminist that came to the defense of the proven-innocent Duke lacrosse team, prior to the prosecutor, Mike Nifong, being shown to be a liar.
  - rosser 8y ago
    Relevance, beyond, "What about this bad thing some of these people I don't like did"? Specifically, what about these cases is remotely illustrative of "all" of anything?
    - patrickg_zill 8y ago
      "Pattern and practice of behavior," your Honor.
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metalliqaz 8y ago

So much this.

moate 8y ago

Hello, I'm a feminist. Not unhappy that people who are committing sexual crimes are being brought to justice. Your wide brush is counterproductive to the "logical and open" discussion here. The whole point of the article that you read in its entirety and internalized before commenting upon it was that this is difficult for some people to accept: a champion of women's rights was perpetrating the crimes she seemed to be fighting against. Reconciling these truths is difficult for some people, and some people who worked closely with this woman will come to defense of her character as they knew her. Hypocrites abound. In fact everyone holds some conflicting views/acts in ways that work against their self interest. It's human nature. But not everyone who you disagree with is a hypocrite. Hell,some of them aren't even objectively wrong! But if you only exist in an in-group vs. out-group mindset you're going to miss some great points. TL;dr- Title IX is great, and it seems like this woman is both a renowned academic AND a sexual abuser.

newswriter99 8y ago
I'm curious as to how often you go out of your way to criticize the lack of logical and open discussion in feminist circles. I'm in the journalism industry, and have seen time and time again one-sided mob psychology suffocate anyone even considering to constructively criticize the movement. If you can't admit just how extremist and tribal the current atmosphere is, I don't think you're going to be able to appreciate the perspective of the person you're replying to.
- moate 8y ago
  Is "when I think they're wrong" often enough? You're just restating my point back to me. Remember when I said this: "Hypocrites abound. In fact everyone holds some conflicting views/acts in ways that work against their self interest. It's human nature. But not everyone who you disagree with is a hypocrite. Hell,some of them aren't even objectively wrong! But if you only exist in an in-group vs. out-group mindset you're going to miss some great points." That's the same thing as admitting that tribal behavior is a problem. My whole POINT is that the tribal behavior/generalized statements (like "all feminists") creates a breakdown in the discussion.
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- beat 8y ago
  As a journalist who presumably is covering feminism, are you familiar with the ongoing back-and-forth between second wave feminism, third wave feminism, and intersectional feminism? Do you know what a TERF is? I see a lot of healthy debate and constructive criticism within feminism.
headmelted 8y ago
I think you've distilled the debate perfectly to it's uncomfortable and anachronistic point. I think what it comes down to is that some people (myself included) are finding it hard to give the benefit of the doubt here when the character defence being offered so closely parallels what's been said in the past in defence of brazen male perverts. That said, I think you've hit the nail on the head regarding in and out groups, and we should simply be looking at this as: a person has been wronged here, what's the appropriate response? There's a reason the law as written doesn't discriminate offences on race or gender.
patrickg_zill 8y ago
Read up on Erin Pizzey, if you truly have a "logical and open" mind on this subject.
- moate 8y ago
  Is there anything specific I'm supposed to feel about her to show my open mind? Seems like a nice enough woman who primarily earned her living selling books. Public opinion turned on her, she couldn't sell her books, and she's had a rough go of things. Shelters for victims of domestic violence are a public good, and women can be abusive. Not all feminists are nice people, some of them have political agendas that are meant to replace a patriarchy with a matriarchy and her opinions didn't jive with that, so they likely put pressure to silence her voice. I'm still a feminist though, and other than learning one woman's story I genuinely don't understand what was supposed to happen here.
  - patrickg_zill 8y ago
    A woman who started the very first DV shelter in the world, then was ostracized by the entirety of mainstream feminism for stating forbidden truths. This isn't a debate between 2 equal factions, as you've seemed to cast it: it was a Stalinist style purge of all who didn't hold the correct opinions; with the same people who committed the purge, still in control today.
    - moate 8y ago
      A group of people did a bad thing to a lady. There were many people in the group and they had more power/agency which they leveraged against this lady for reasons I can only speculate on because I wasn't really alive at the time or invited to the meetings. In all likelihood I wouldn't get along very well with these people. They're part of a group I don't consider myself associating with. I'm still a feminist, and I still don't understand why I can't be a feminist and also believe the story I just told. The fact that "mainstream feminism" ostracized Pizzey has nothing to do with my personal beliefs. I guess I'm not a mainstream feminist? Is this mainstream?: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2017/01/19/feminism-intersectionality-racism-sexism-class/96633750/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2017/01/19/feminism-inte... This is pretty close to me. FWIW, I think very few people exist as absolutes but typically shades of grey. IDK what "good" or "bad" people are anymore, just good or bad actions. Promoting equality is something I find to be a good action. That is what I feel feminism represents (or should represent, or represents to me).

rosser 8y ago

I'm so glad we can put aside our stereotypes and narratives and have constructive, un-hyperbolic discussions about these nuanced topics on this site.

patrickg_zill 8y ago
Name a prominent feminist that came to the defense of the proven-innocent Duke lacrosse team, prior to the prosecutor, Mike Nifong, being shown to be a liar.
- rosser 8y ago
  Relevance, beyond, "What about this bad thing some of these people I don't like did"? Specifically, what about these cases is remotely illustrative of "all" of anything?
  - patrickg_zill 8y ago
    "Pattern and practice of behavior," your Honor.
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