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Yep. Pretty soon. You write code. You create a docker file. You find a place to run the docker file with your code [cheapest!]. Run it through your tests. Moni

Yep. Pretty soon. You write code. You create a docker file. You find a place to run the docker file with your code [cheapest!]. Run it through your tests. Monitor it. The end. No vpcs,salts, puppets, sshs,chefs, horses,anisbles, cats,ec2s,devops,noops, sysadmins, kubernetes or chaos monkeys required.

grezql 8y ago
this wont be popular but I always felt like docker was a step backwards in order to regroup and take a giant leap forward. I went from right clicking and deploying from visual studio to SSH and configuring dockerfiles, docker compose, even nginx.conf to loadbalance. You do get more bang for the buck with such setup but its too much work on infrastructure and less time for development. edit: add kubernetes to it, although AKS and GKE being free lessens the burden its still too much for a software dev like me.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- k__ 8y ago
  Well, this is probably to find common ground between FaaS people and DevOps, haha. Being a FaaS proponent, I still think this could be a good idea, because of the kinda standardized workings of Docker. I mean, AWS also uses Docker for local testing.
- DelightOne 8y ago
  > although AKS and GKE being free I‘m a developer too and I feel the burden too. Can you tell what you mean here?
  - grezql 8y ago
    Setting up and maintaining a kubernetes cluster on my own would probably kill me desire to touch a computer again. Azure and Google provides free Kubernetes-cluster-management-as-service. But you are right, its still a hassle.
    - _asummers 8y ago
      Been going through that process the past few days on Scaleway, as they don't have a hosted K8. It's... tough... but I'm learning a lot and have a much deeper understanding of K8s clusters from an operational perspective now. I have a much deeper understanding of the magic happening behind the scenes to keep everything talking to each other, and even if I wind up on a hosted solution in the end, it's been invaluable.
      - grezql 8y ago
        thats what I told myslef too when I invested hours after hours learning Knockout then AngularJS. Only for reactjs to dominate a year after. I skipped learning react and stuck with angular. Now I hear rumours theres a new sheriff in town named Vue.js. Careful with filling your brain with domain-specific knowledge. :)
      - esistgut 8y ago
        There is an early access program for they hosted kubernetes service https://www.scaleway.com/kubernetes/ https://www.scaleway.com/kubernetes/
        _asummers 8y ago
        Yeah I signed up months ago but haven't gotten an invite yet =(
    - grosjona 8y ago
      Deploying to a Kubernetes cluster is easy. You just have to learn a few key concepts to write your own .yaml definitions. Also, some open source frameworks come with the .yaml definitions already.
crgwbr 8y ago
I don’t think that’s likely or desirable. VPCs and the ability to make a service that’s not in the public internet are hugely valuable from a security standpoint. And Ansible, Terraform, etc are great for automation and managing configuration and architecture. It’s unwise to discard everything that came before you when hopping in the shiny new bandwagon. Even if it is the future, last generations tools can still teach you a lot.
EGreg 8y ago
Actually, even better: You use dat or MaidSAFE to write client side apps. The back end is end to end encrypted, secure, automatically rebalanced, uncensorable, permissionless, and people install your app and use a cryptocurrency to pay for resources. And of course you use public key cryptography to maintain your app and upgrades propagate without needing to select a domain or host for them.
aequitas 8y ago
Until you discover that the thing you are building requires more than a single application running in a single container and you end up building an entire "Operating System" around your containers and the circle starts all over again. Complexity is hardly ever in the solution, but mostly in the problem. Single solutions to complex problems often ignore/forget important parts of the problem and they come back to bite you, hard.
- some_account 8y ago
  I don't know... My experience is the other extreme - tech teams that make everything super complicated to support everything that can possibly happen. As a consequence, the it environment requires six months of experience to even understand. It's really not very fun to work in those environments. Lots of unnecessary complexity.
  - jarym 8y ago
    Yup. I’ve seen this - customers who insist every package has to be installed in some special place because /opt is ‘reserved’ - have to have non-standard ports for everything because it might slow down attackers - have to have an Apache proxy in front of everything, always - even internal components. ‘Cos. - won’t invest in trusted SSL certificates for internal services. - every sql query has to be wrapped in a stored procedure - no exceptions. ... list goes on
    - laumars 8y ago
      There is actually a reasonable arguement for the stored procedure one. It means you can have different permissions for tables as you do for stored procedures so your application doesn't have permission to directly query your passwords. The benefit there is if an attacker gains access to your application and/or the DB authentication credentials they cannot then export users passwords or other sensitive information.
      - phil21 8y ago
peterwwillis 8y ago
You still need all that, you're just paying someone else to do it for you. As the app gets more complicated you will have to do more. It is impossible to remove complexity by adding abstraction. You've only hidden it.
- weberc2 8y ago
  True, but like every thing else there are economies of scale to having a few specialists managing the abstraction that everyone else can depend on.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
artursapek 8y ago
If you're working on anything with above-average security requirements you will still be managing your entire stack...
meritt 8y ago
Those things are still required. You're just paying for the abstraction and hoping your host is competent enough to keep things running smoothly.
um_ya 8y ago
dokku is pretty close to this.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
laumars 8y ago
Half the stuff you described there solve different problems to docker. Not to mention that docker doesn't solve all problems in infrastructure. I like to think of docker like git. It solves some problems with distributing data but it doesn't solve the problem of developers writing code, writing tests, pipelines, etc. Nor even problems with 3rd party APIs etc. Obviously this isn't a perfect analogy but my point is docker isn't a magical silver bullet. I've worked in places where their solution to everything was "docker" and it honestly caused more complexity problems than it solved. That's not to say I don't like docker; in fact I've been a big advocate for containerisation long before docker was a thing. However like with any tech, the key is using the right tool for the right job instead of attacking every screw with the same hammer.
grosjona 8y ago
Whenever a solution offers you simplicity, you're giving up flexibility. That's why I'd prefer to use a more advanced but standardized open source platform like Kubernetes.
tw1010 8y ago
It feels so amazingly depressing for so much sunk knowledge to just go away and be worthless. Feels like I could have learned so many more things that I could have had gotten joy out of today and still extract useful things out of, or build things on top of, long into the future if I'd just focus on the time-invariants of knowledge space.

grezql 8y ago

this wont be popular but I always felt like docker was a step backwards in order to regroup and take a giant leap forward. I went from right clicking and deploying from visual studio to SSH and configuring dockerfiles, docker compose, even nginx.conf to loadbalance. You do get more bang for the buck with such setup but its too much work on infrastructure and less time for development. edit: add kubernetes to it, although AKS and GKE being free lessens the burden its still too much for a software dev like me.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
k__ 8y ago
Well, this is probably to find common ground between FaaS people and DevOps, haha. Being a FaaS proponent, I still think this could be a good idea, because of the kinda standardized workings of Docker. I mean, AWS also uses Docker for local testing.
DelightOne 8y ago
> although AKS and GKE being free I‘m a developer too and I feel the burden too. Can you tell what you mean here?
- grezql 8y ago
  Setting up and maintaining a kubernetes cluster on my own would probably kill me desire to touch a computer again. Azure and Google provides free Kubernetes-cluster-management-as-service. But you are right, its still a hassle.
  - _asummers 8y ago
    Been going through that process the past few days on Scaleway, as they don't have a hosted K8. It's... tough... but I'm learning a lot and have a much deeper understanding of K8s clusters from an operational perspective now. I have a much deeper understanding of the magic happening behind the scenes to keep everything talking to each other, and even if I wind up on a hosted solution in the end, it's been invaluable.
    - grezql 8y ago
      thats what I told myslef too when I invested hours after hours learning Knockout then AngularJS. Only for reactjs to dominate a year after. I skipped learning react and stuck with angular. Now I hear rumours theres a new sheriff in town named Vue.js. Careful with filling your brain with domain-specific knowledge. :)
    - esistgut 8y ago
      There is an early access program for they hosted kubernetes service https://www.scaleway.com/kubernetes/ https://www.scaleway.com/kubernetes/
      - _asummers 8y ago
        Yeah I signed up months ago but haven't gotten an invite yet =(
  - grosjona 8y ago
    Deploying to a Kubernetes cluster is easy. You just have to learn a few key concepts to write your own .yaml definitions. Also, some open source frameworks come with the .yaml definitions already.

crgwbr 8y ago

I don’t think that’s likely or desirable. VPCs and the ability to make a service that’s not in the public internet are hugely valuable from a security standpoint. And Ansible, Terraform, etc are great for automation and managing configuration and architecture. It’s unwise to discard everything that came before you when hopping in the shiny new bandwagon. Even if it is the future, last generations tools can still teach you a lot.

EGreg 8y ago

Actually, even better: You use dat or MaidSAFE to write client side apps. The back end is end to end encrypted, secure, automatically rebalanced, uncensorable, permissionless, and people install your app and use a cryptocurrency to pay for resources. And of course you use public key cryptography to maintain your app and upgrades propagate without needing to select a domain or host for them.

aequitas 8y ago

Until you discover that the thing you are building requires more than a single application running in a single container and you end up building an entire "Operating System" around your containers and the circle starts all over again. Complexity is hardly ever in the solution, but mostly in the problem. Single solutions to complex problems often ignore/forget important parts of the problem and they come back to bite you, hard.

some_account 8y ago
I don't know... My experience is the other extreme - tech teams that make everything super complicated to support everything that can possibly happen. As a consequence, the it environment requires six months of experience to even understand. It's really not very fun to work in those environments. Lots of unnecessary complexity.
- jarym 8y ago
  Yup. I’ve seen this - customers who insist every package has to be installed in some special place because /opt is ‘reserved’ - have to have non-standard ports for everything because it might slow down attackers - have to have an Apache proxy in front of everything, always - even internal components. ‘Cos. - won’t invest in trusted SSL certificates for internal services. - every sql query has to be wrapped in a stored procedure - no exceptions. ... list goes on
  - laumars 8y ago
    There is actually a reasonable arguement for the stored procedure one. It means you can have different permissions for tables as you do for stored procedures so your application doesn't have permission to directly query your passwords. The benefit there is if an attacker gains access to your application and/or the DB authentication credentials they cannot then export users passwords or other sensitive information.
    - phil21 8y ago

peterwwillis 8y ago

You still need all that, you're just paying someone else to do it for you. As the app gets more complicated you will have to do more. It is impossible to remove complexity by adding abstraction. You've only hidden it.

weberc2 8y ago
True, but like every thing else there are economies of scale to having a few specialists managing the abstraction that everyone else can depend on.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]

artursapek 8y ago

If you're working on anything with above-average security requirements you will still be managing your entire stack...

meritt 8y ago

Those things are still required. You're just paying for the abstraction and hoping your host is competent enough to keep things running smoothly.

um_ya 8y ago

dokku is pretty close to this.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

laumars 8y ago

Half the stuff you described there solve different problems to docker. Not to mention that docker doesn't solve all problems in infrastructure. I like to think of docker like git. It solves some problems with distributing data but it doesn't solve the problem of developers writing code, writing tests, pipelines, etc. Nor even problems with 3rd party APIs etc. Obviously this isn't a perfect analogy but my point is docker isn't a magical silver bullet. I've worked in places where their solution to everything was "docker" and it honestly caused more complexity problems than it solved. That's not to say I don't like docker; in fact I've been a big advocate for containerisation long before docker was a thing. However like with any tech, the key is using the right tool for the right job instead of attacking every screw with the same hammer.

grosjona 8y ago

Whenever a solution offers you simplicity, you're giving up flexibility. That's why I'd prefer to use a more advanced but standardized open source platform like Kubernetes.

tw1010 8y ago

It feels so amazingly depressing for so much sunk knowledge to just go away and be worthless. Feels like I could have learned so many more things that I could have had gotten joy out of today and still extract useful things out of, or build things on top of, long into the future if I'd just focus on the time-invariants of knowledge space.