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I'm extremely excited by this type of electric scooter. If you're interested in the options currently on the market in the USA, Electrek did a recent roundup he

I'm extremely excited by this type of electric scooter. If you're interested in the options currently on the market in the USA, Electrek did a recent roundup here: https://electrek.co/2018/06/07/electric-mopeds-use-is-booming-around-the-world-here-are-the-options-available-in-the-usa/ https://electrek.co/2018/06/07/electric-mopeds-use-is-boomin... You can get an imported Cirkit electric moped with a top speed of 35mph and 40 mile range for $1,200. It can't totally replace a car for most Americans, but it can probably replace 80% of car travel for most commuters. You can go right around traffic, maintenance and electricity costs are a penny or two a mile and these things are fun to drive!

vkou 8y ago
Most Americans have to drive on a highway to get to work. As long as they aren't highway-legal, they are a non-starter
- astrodust 8y ago
  As long as Americans insist on living a ridiculous distance from where they work, no solution will ever work.
  - yourapostasy 8y ago
    This is a function of US business management eschewing remote work by and large, and even further, insisting on locating most work opportunities in more prestigious, more expensive areas of metro geographies (which are already more expensive per unit area than suburban, exurban, or rural areas), than choices by employees to live "a ridiculous distance" from those opportunities. Take away the massive subsidies to the FIRE sectors, drop real estate closer to 10% of after-tax income to compensate for the US' inefficient health care system (then as we wring out those inefficiencies, rebalance the allocations back towards 20-25% of after-tax income to housing), and employees will flock towards city centers. I've read all the calls for Americans to give up their ginormous houses and lots, etc. That is tone deaf to the dynamics of the business of residential development markets in the US, again excessively skewed by FIRE sector subsidies, with runaway municipal development fees and processes and bank financing herd trends adding unhelpful vectors. Before John and Jane Doe even pull up to the highway exit leading to the housing development, their limited choices were already baked in for them by other, far more monied and powerful actors. Incentives matter.
  - fokov 8y ago
    I'd move closer to the jobs if they weren't so far away from affordable housing :( I loved it when I lived .7 miles away from work.
    - astrodust 8y ago
      The value equation would tip a lot more if Americans paid a fair price for automobiles. Everything, from oil, to roads, to the cars themselves, are stupidly subsidized.
      - StevePerkins 8y ago
        (1) Drastic increases in gas and car taxes would be highly regressive, and disproportionately affect the poor. (2) Housing prices are rising in large part due to foreign investment / money sheltering. I doubt that you could plausibly increase gas and car taxes high enough offset this, and it would be outright dystopian if you did.
        jessaustin 8y ago
        It really seems like we should be able to directly tax the foreign investment in order to improve public transit... I don't have any good ideas on this however.
      - jahewson 8y ago
        Of course that would just make both houses and cars unaffordable.
        baq 8y ago
        I think that was the point...
  - analog31 8y ago
    I live close to work. It's 4 miles by bike. But living close to work is great until... 1. You have a 2 income household 2. Throw kids and their schools into the mix 3. One or both members of the household change jobs All of those things happen to most families. Now it becomes a complete toss-up, and you have to be extremely lucky if both or even one of you can work close to home, school, etc. My spouse and I are in that category, so I know it's possible, but I also know we're lucky. Things might change if there was enough of a safety net, that it wasn't vital to cling to full time employment at all costs.
  - snarfybarfy 8y ago
    Well there is a solution in some far away (mystical?) countries, which is called public (omg communist !!1!) transportation. I also live a longish way from work (30 km) but I've got like 12 trains an hour doing this in 20 - 25 mins. [Thats like 2.12e2 furlongs in 1.45e-2 fortnites for you non metrics.]
- kcorbitt 8y ago
  I'm having trouble finding US-wide data for average commute distance, but Appendix B here https://www.brookings.edu/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/Srvy_JobsProximity.pdf https://www.brookings.edu/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/Srvy_Jo... breaks it down by metro area. It seems like most people in most places commute 8 miles or less, which matches my intuition. At those distances a 35mph scooter will generally get you where you're going at least as fast as a car, unless you've got a straight shot on the freeway and there's little to no traffic.
  - gnu8 8y ago
    How does it do in the snow?
    - lylecubed 8y ago
      Not bad, actually. http://ridetowork.org/files/baroninwinter/index.html http://ridetowork.org/files/baroninwinter/index.html
  - logfromblammo 8y ago
    ACS survey (2012-2016) by the census puts mean commute at 26 minutes, industry-specific averages ranging from 21 minutes for military to 33 minutes for miners. [0] https://www.census.gov/search-results.html?q=commute&page=1&stateGeo=none&searchtype=web&cssp=SERP&_charset_=UTF-8 https://www.census.gov/search-results.html?q=commute&page=1&...
  - vkou 8y ago
    It doesn't matter if your commute is as short as 2 miles - when one of those miles is a freeway. In a few urban areas, you can take side streets to avoid the freeway, but in much of the country, this is not an option. For me, for example, avoiding the freeway adds 17 miles to my commute - turning it from a 10 mile one, into a 27 mile one, adding over 100 intersections to it (Compared to the 12 intersections that my regular commute has). I'm going to have to pass on that.
  - epage 8y ago
    For cities like Austin, a lot of businesses are on "frontage roads", like my company. So while its not a question of highway legal, these are roads with 55+ MPH speed limits and I suspect going 35 MPH will disrupt traffic enough to be dangerous.
fossuser 8y ago
They're fun, but extremely dangerous and commuting regularly on one increases the odds you'll get hurt. There's some risk with bicycling too, but I think when there's an added motor it's easier to be going to fast and hit gravel without really realizing it.
- MartinCron 8y ago
  I have commuted via bicycle and Vespa scooter and I feel so much safer on the Vespa. I can keep up with traffic, I have proper mirrors and signals, and I am wearing better safety gear.
  - 21 8y ago
    In UK a moped is 50 times more dangerous per unit of distance than a car. In EU 10 times: https://ethicalhaydonism.wordpress.com/2018/02/04/micromorts-from-transport-updated/ https://ethicalhaydonism.wordpress.com/2018/02/04/micromorts...
    - MartinCron 8y ago
      A lot of the statistics on The danger of mopeds/scooters/motorcycles do not differentiate between a commuter rising to work on a 200cc scooter and a bar-hopper riding home on the freeway on a litre sportbike. In the US, anyway, half of motorcycle fatalities involve drunk riders.
      - kbd 8y ago
        > half of motorcycle fatalities involve drunk riders Really? I did not realize this at all! I suppose this should make me feel 50% safer on the road as a non-drunk motorcyclist. One time I was out with friends and I'd ridden my motorcycle. As an experiment, I had one beer and then rode home. Just that one beer that wouldn't have mattered at all in a car was very noticeable when riding my motorcycle, and I vowed no alcohol ever again when riding.
        8y ago
josefresco 8y ago
You can go right around traffic Don't do that.
- fossuser 8y ago
  It's legal to split lane in California.
  - ramses0 8y ago
    Last I heard, it was actually "not illegal" to lane split in California.
    - lylecubed 8y ago
      It was officially legalized in 2016 and went into affect January 2017. https://www.motorcyclecruiser.com/california-lane-splitting-bill-goes-into-effect-january-1 https://www.motorcyclecruiser.com/california-lane-splitting-...
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- virtualritz 8y ago
  Most European cities where scooters (mopeds) make up a seizable portion of traffic (e.g. Paris) would come to a standstill if you "didn't do that". The issue is more that drivers in the US aren't used to sharing the road with these vehicles. In Paris, drivers naturally drive far left and far right on roads that have two lanes per direction to leave a corridor for the scooters in the middle. Then 'going around traffic' is less of an issue for everyone involved.
  - gkilmain 8y ago
    Is 'going around traffic' the same as 'weaving in and out of traffic'? How do you propose we leave the middle corridor open for your scooter when its jammed bumper to bumper? Fuck your scooters
antisthenes 8y ago
Looks like most of that list is a non-starter due to extremely low range (yes, 40 mile sounds good in theory, until you realize these are lead-acid batteries that should not be deep discharged, realistically this is a 20-mile range) Those scooters should come with lighter Li-Ion systems and at least a 50 mile charge. The only thing that looks moderately attractive there is the Onyx RCR in terms of range and speed, but what's worrisome is that it doesn't seem to be built for the speeds it's advertised for. I'd be scared to go over 30mph on something that looks like that.
r00fus 8y ago
Great for people without kids. Unfortunately due to the untrusting and inadequate public transit network (read: no more meaningful bussing) in the US, I'll be ferrying my kids daily for another decade+, requiring a car that seats > 2.

vkou 8y ago

Most Americans have to drive on a highway to get to work. As long as they aren't highway-legal, they are a non-starter

astrodust 8y ago
As long as Americans insist on living a ridiculous distance from where they work, no solution will ever work.
- yourapostasy 8y ago
  This is a function of US business management eschewing remote work by and large, and even further, insisting on locating most work opportunities in more prestigious, more expensive areas of metro geographies (which are already more expensive per unit area than suburban, exurban, or rural areas), than choices by employees to live "a ridiculous distance" from those opportunities. Take away the massive subsidies to the FIRE sectors, drop real estate closer to 10% of after-tax income to compensate for the US' inefficient health care system (then as we wring out those inefficiencies, rebalance the allocations back towards 20-25% of after-tax income to housing), and employees will flock towards city centers. I've read all the calls for Americans to give up their ginormous houses and lots, etc. That is tone deaf to the dynamics of the business of residential development markets in the US, again excessively skewed by FIRE sector subsidies, with runaway municipal development fees and processes and bank financing herd trends adding unhelpful vectors. Before John and Jane Doe even pull up to the highway exit leading to the housing development, their limited choices were already baked in for them by other, far more monied and powerful actors. Incentives matter.
- fokov 8y ago
  I'd move closer to the jobs if they weren't so far away from affordable housing :( I loved it when I lived .7 miles away from work.
  - astrodust 8y ago
    The value equation would tip a lot more if Americans paid a fair price for automobiles. Everything, from oil, to roads, to the cars themselves, are stupidly subsidized.
    - StevePerkins 8y ago
      (1) Drastic increases in gas and car taxes would be highly regressive, and disproportionately affect the poor. (2) Housing prices are rising in large part due to foreign investment / money sheltering. I doubt that you could plausibly increase gas and car taxes high enough offset this, and it would be outright dystopian if you did.
      - jessaustin 8y ago
        It really seems like we should be able to directly tax the foreign investment in order to improve public transit... I don't have any good ideas on this however.
    - jahewson 8y ago
      Of course that would just make both houses and cars unaffordable.
      - baq 8y ago
        I think that was the point...
- analog31 8y ago
  I live close to work. It's 4 miles by bike. But living close to work is great until... 1. You have a 2 income household 2. Throw kids and their schools into the mix 3. One or both members of the household change jobs All of those things happen to most families. Now it becomes a complete toss-up, and you have to be extremely lucky if both or even one of you can work close to home, school, etc. My spouse and I are in that category, so I know it's possible, but I also know we're lucky. Things might change if there was enough of a safety net, that it wasn't vital to cling to full time employment at all costs.
- snarfybarfy 8y ago
  Well there is a solution in some far away (mystical?) countries, which is called public (omg communist !!1!) transportation. I also live a longish way from work (30 km) but I've got like 12 trains an hour doing this in 20 - 25 mins. [Thats like 2.12e2 furlongs in 1.45e-2 fortnites for you non metrics.]
kcorbitt 8y ago
I'm having trouble finding US-wide data for average commute distance, but Appendix B here https://www.brookings.edu/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/Srvy_JobsProximity.pdf https://www.brookings.edu/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/Srvy_Jo... breaks it down by metro area. It seems like most people in most places commute 8 miles or less, which matches my intuition. At those distances a 35mph scooter will generally get you where you're going at least as fast as a car, unless you've got a straight shot on the freeway and there's little to no traffic.
- gnu8 8y ago
  How does it do in the snow?
  - lylecubed 8y ago
    Not bad, actually. http://ridetowork.org/files/baroninwinter/index.html http://ridetowork.org/files/baroninwinter/index.html
- logfromblammo 8y ago
  ACS survey (2012-2016) by the census puts mean commute at 26 minutes, industry-specific averages ranging from 21 minutes for military to 33 minutes for miners. [0] https://www.census.gov/search-results.html?q=commute&page=1&stateGeo=none&searchtype=web&cssp=SERP&_charset_=UTF-8 https://www.census.gov/search-results.html?q=commute&page=1&...
- vkou 8y ago
  It doesn't matter if your commute is as short as 2 miles - when one of those miles is a freeway. In a few urban areas, you can take side streets to avoid the freeway, but in much of the country, this is not an option. For me, for example, avoiding the freeway adds 17 miles to my commute - turning it from a 10 mile one, into a 27 mile one, adding over 100 intersections to it (Compared to the 12 intersections that my regular commute has). I'm going to have to pass on that.
- epage 8y ago
  For cities like Austin, a lot of businesses are on "frontage roads", like my company. So while its not a question of highway legal, these are roads with 55+ MPH speed limits and I suspect going 35 MPH will disrupt traffic enough to be dangerous.

fossuser 8y ago

They're fun, but extremely dangerous and commuting regularly on one increases the odds you'll get hurt. There's some risk with bicycling too, but I think when there's an added motor it's easier to be going to fast and hit gravel without really realizing it.

MartinCron 8y ago
I have commuted via bicycle and Vespa scooter and I feel so much safer on the Vespa. I can keep up with traffic, I have proper mirrors and signals, and I am wearing better safety gear.
- 21 8y ago
  In UK a moped is 50 times more dangerous per unit of distance than a car. In EU 10 times: https://ethicalhaydonism.wordpress.com/2018/02/04/micromorts-from-transport-updated/ https://ethicalhaydonism.wordpress.com/2018/02/04/micromorts...
  - MartinCron 8y ago
    A lot of the statistics on The danger of mopeds/scooters/motorcycles do not differentiate between a commuter rising to work on a 200cc scooter and a bar-hopper riding home on the freeway on a litre sportbike. In the US, anyway, half of motorcycle fatalities involve drunk riders.
    - kbd 8y ago
      > half of motorcycle fatalities involve drunk riders Really? I did not realize this at all! I suppose this should make me feel 50% safer on the road as a non-drunk motorcyclist. One time I was out with friends and I'd ridden my motorcycle. As an experiment, I had one beer and then rode home. Just that one beer that wouldn't have mattered at all in a car was very noticeable when riding my motorcycle, and I vowed no alcohol ever again when riding.
      - 8y ago

josefresco 8y ago

You can go right around traffic Don't do that.

fossuser 8y ago
It's legal to split lane in California.
- ramses0 8y ago
  Last I heard, it was actually "not illegal" to lane split in California.
  - lylecubed 8y ago
    It was officially legalized in 2016 and went into affect January 2017. https://www.motorcyclecruiser.com/california-lane-splitting-bill-goes-into-effect-january-1 https://www.motorcyclecruiser.com/california-lane-splitting-...
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
virtualritz 8y ago
Most European cities where scooters (mopeds) make up a seizable portion of traffic (e.g. Paris) would come to a standstill if you "didn't do that". The issue is more that drivers in the US aren't used to sharing the road with these vehicles. In Paris, drivers naturally drive far left and far right on roads that have two lanes per direction to leave a corridor for the scooters in the middle. Then 'going around traffic' is less of an issue for everyone involved.
- gkilmain 8y ago
  Is 'going around traffic' the same as 'weaving in and out of traffic'? How do you propose we leave the middle corridor open for your scooter when its jammed bumper to bumper? Fuck your scooters

antisthenes 8y ago

Looks like most of that list is a non-starter due to extremely low range (yes, 40 mile sounds good in theory, until you realize these are lead-acid batteries that should not be deep discharged, realistically this is a 20-mile range) Those scooters should come with lighter Li-Ion systems and at least a 50 mile charge. The only thing that looks moderately attractive there is the Onyx RCR in terms of range and speed, but what's worrisome is that it doesn't seem to be built for the speeds it's advertised for. I'd be scared to go over 30mph on something that looks like that.

r00fus 8y ago

Great for people without kids. Unfortunately due to the untrusting and inadequate public transit network (read: no more meaningful bussing) in the US, I'll be ferrying my kids daily for another decade+, requiring a car that seats > 2.