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"Mr. Reitman said he never intended to become any kind of public figure in a national conversation about gender, and that he started the process before the move

by novia 8y ago

"Mr. Reitman said he never intended to become any kind of public figure in a national conversation about gender, and that he started the process before the movement took off. “It didn’t come from #MeToo,” he said." Misleading title. I'm a feminist, and knowing neither the professor or the former student, I would believe the student's claims above those of the professor. Gender has nothing to do with it. My reasoning: there is absolutely no good reason for the former student to lie about what happened, and there are plenty of reasons for the professor to lie. Additionally, the email about, "I'll try not to kiss you," is pretty damning evidence. I've flagged this article because it seems it is attempting to portray this as a men vs women issue, which it absolutely is not. Anyone who abuses their power and makes others feel uncomfortable in this way deserves to face consequences. The #MeToo movement is about all of us, all humans, taking a stand against sexual assault and harassment, especially in professional relationships such as the one in the article.

peteretep 8y ago
> The #MeToo movement is about all of us, all humans, taking a stand against sexual assault and harassment, especially in professional relationships such as the one in the article. While I'd agree, the prominent feminists quoted by the article do not agree.
- novia 8y ago
  Which prominent feminists? The person who says the most reprehensible things in the article, Diane Davis, is not a prominent feminist. I've never even heard of her. I looked up her wikipedia page, and it looks like her main hobby might be updating her own wikipedia page. The other person quoted, Dana Bolger, who said Title 9 has mostly been used against predatory men, seemed like they were being quoted out of context. Nowhere did Dana Bolger say, "historically this has been the case and it needs to stay that way." Googling Dana, she actually responds to the article on her Twitter page, saying much the same thing that I do in my comment. https://twitter.com/danabolger/status/1029369826710564866 https://twitter.com/danabolger/status/1029369826710564866
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - JoelMcCracken 8y ago
    From the article: "Soon after the university made its final, confidential determination this spring, a group of scholars from around the world, including prominent feminists, sent a letter to N.Y.U. in defense of Professor Ronell. Judith Butler, the author of the book “Gender Trouble” and one of the most influential feminist scholars today, was first on the list." I assume this is to what grandparent was referring.
  - dwighttk 8y ago
    The signatories of the letter mentioned in the article, which you can download here: http://leiterreports.typepad.com/files/butler-letter-for-avital-ronell.doc http://leiterreports.typepad.com/files/butler-letter-for-avi... (it's a 37KB .doc) There were 51 by my count, but I didn't count carefully. (also that might not be the final version)
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
- UncleMeat 8y ago
  You are right. There is often disagreement and infighting within feminist groups. That's how we've made progress. Some feminists being wrong isn't an indictment of the entire movement.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
nailer 8y ago
> I'm a feminist, and knowing neither the professor or the former student, I would believe the student's claims above those of the professor. Gender has nothing to do with it. I would believe neither, ignore Title IX, and have such serious claims investigated by a judge. Then I'd believe the judge.
- metalliqaz 8y ago
  Investigated by police and prosecutors, then decided by a judge. This ain't megacity 1
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
djsumdog 8y ago
I agree it shouldn't be framed as man vs woman, but see my other comments about the complexities of this. Also, the #metoo movement is pretty dangerous in the sense that prominent people in it are seeking legal frameworks and changes. See my comment about Heidi Matthews's interview and take on me too on the Owls at Dawn podcast. You can't help how you feel. If you fall in love with someone at work or in academia or in some other type of "position of authority," do we now need contracts to ensure the relationship is wanted by both parties? That would be the legal requirement, and .. do you need another contract to break up? Maybe you should give your partner two weeks notice? I feel like there are a lot of deep complexities here and really difficult questions, more than a simple harassment complaint. I think the people ruling on this complaint must have felt the same way. I think back to some of my partners. I can't imagine having all our personal e-mails and notes put on display for a committee to decide the nature of our relationship. What world are we living in?
- s73v3r_ 8y ago
  "You can't help how you feel. If you fall in love with someone at work or in academia or in some other type of "position of authority," do we now need contracts to ensure the relationship is wanted by both parties?" Sure. Or, just don't date subordinates.
- lederhosen 8y ago
  I think it is quite easy. If you have a relationship with someone and having a "position of authority", the simple solution is to get rid of the "position of authority", let your lover have another boss. That responsibility is of course on the one with power. I say "the simple solution" as it is the company policy of all companies I have been working for. I _guess_ it is the same for all universities. I can _only_ guess that _maybe_ youngster is under pressure having sex with oldster with position of authority. I need not guess that all these complexities could have been handled easily by assigning another professor to the student. And there is no question who's fault that is. You do not need a contract, but do not fuck people that you have direct power over.
gwbas1c 8y ago
> I've flagged this article because it seems it is attempting to portray this as a men vs women issue, which it absolutely is not. Anyone who abuses their power and makes others feel uncomfortable in this way deserves to face consequences. The highly rated comments tend to understand quite clearly that this isn't a man-versus-woman thing. I don't think flagging this article is appropriate. Hacker news has a rather mature crowd when it comes to issues like this. (In contrast, if you're in any way critical of Bitcoin or Blockchain, you'll bring out the crazies.)
- s73v3r_ 8y ago
  "Hacker news has a rather mature crowd when it comes to issues like this." You and I have been visiting very different Hacker Newses, then.

by novia 8y ago

peteretep 8y ago

> The #MeToo movement is about all of us, all humans, taking a stand against sexual assault and harassment, especially in professional relationships such as the one in the article. While I'd agree, the prominent feminists quoted by the article do not agree.

novia 8y ago
Which prominent feminists? The person who says the most reprehensible things in the article, Diane Davis, is not a prominent feminist. I've never even heard of her. I looked up her wikipedia page, and it looks like her main hobby might be updating her own wikipedia page. The other person quoted, Dana Bolger, who said Title 9 has mostly been used against predatory men, seemed like they were being quoted out of context. Nowhere did Dana Bolger say, "historically this has been the case and it needs to stay that way." Googling Dana, she actually responds to the article on her Twitter page, saying much the same thing that I do in my comment. https://twitter.com/danabolger/status/1029369826710564866 https://twitter.com/danabolger/status/1029369826710564866
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- JoelMcCracken 8y ago
  From the article: "Soon after the university made its final, confidential determination this spring, a group of scholars from around the world, including prominent feminists, sent a letter to N.Y.U. in defense of Professor Ronell. Judith Butler, the author of the book “Gender Trouble” and one of the most influential feminist scholars today, was first on the list." I assume this is to what grandparent was referring.
- dwighttk 8y ago
  The signatories of the letter mentioned in the article, which you can download here: http://leiterreports.typepad.com/files/butler-letter-for-avital-ronell.doc http://leiterreports.typepad.com/files/butler-letter-for-avi... (it's a 37KB .doc) There were 51 by my count, but I didn't count carefully. (also that might not be the final version)
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
UncleMeat 8y ago
You are right. There is often disagreement and infighting within feminist groups. That's how we've made progress. Some feminists being wrong isn't an indictment of the entire movement.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

nailer 8y ago

> I'm a feminist, and knowing neither the professor or the former student, I would believe the student's claims above those of the professor. Gender has nothing to do with it. I would believe neither, ignore Title IX, and have such serious claims investigated by a judge. Then I'd believe the judge.

metalliqaz 8y ago
Investigated by police and prosecutors, then decided by a judge. This ain't megacity 1

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

djsumdog 8y ago

I agree it shouldn't be framed as man vs woman, but see my other comments about the complexities of this. Also, the #metoo movement is pretty dangerous in the sense that prominent people in it are seeking legal frameworks and changes. See my comment about Heidi Matthews's interview and take on me too on the Owls at Dawn podcast. You can't help how you feel. If you fall in love with someone at work or in academia or in some other type of "position of authority," do we now need contracts to ensure the relationship is wanted by both parties? That would be the legal requirement, and .. do you need another contract to break up? Maybe you should give your partner two weeks notice? I feel like there are a lot of deep complexities here and really difficult questions, more than a simple harassment complaint. I think the people ruling on this complaint must have felt the same way. I think back to some of my partners. I can't imagine having all our personal e-mails and notes put on display for a committee to decide the nature of our relationship. What world are we living in?

s73v3r_ 8y ago
"You can't help how you feel. If you fall in love with someone at work or in academia or in some other type of "position of authority," do we now need contracts to ensure the relationship is wanted by both parties?" Sure. Or, just don't date subordinates.
lederhosen 8y ago
I think it is quite easy. If you have a relationship with someone and having a "position of authority", the simple solution is to get rid of the "position of authority", let your lover have another boss. That responsibility is of course on the one with power. I say "the simple solution" as it is the company policy of all companies I have been working for. I _guess_ it is the same for all universities. I can _only_ guess that _maybe_ youngster is under pressure having sex with oldster with position of authority. I need not guess that all these complexities could have been handled easily by assigning another professor to the student. And there is no question who's fault that is. You do not need a contract, but do not fuck people that you have direct power over.

gwbas1c 8y ago

> I've flagged this article because it seems it is attempting to portray this as a men vs women issue, which it absolutely is not. Anyone who abuses their power and makes others feel uncomfortable in this way deserves to face consequences. The highly rated comments tend to understand quite clearly that this isn't a man-versus-woman thing. I don't think flagging this article is appropriate. Hacker news has a rather mature crowd when it comes to issues like this. (In contrast, if you're in any way critical of Bitcoin or Blockchain, you'll bring out the crazies.)

s73v3r_ 8y ago
"Hacker news has a rather mature crowd when it comes to issues like this." You and I have been visiting very different Hacker Newses, then.