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Anecdotal but: I've experienced this problem first hand and know not one person with the same experience, that doesn't share the opinion that AOT is a much need

Anecdotal but: I've experienced this problem first hand and know not one person with the same experience, that doesn't share the opinion that AOT is a much needed thing. In Germany even suggesting a law like this will provoke immediate protest by some people who claim to fight for civil rights. What I've encountered though is, that those people who claim to speak for the affected ones don't have a friend or relative with this condition and have never even met such a person. Fighting against AOT is for me not a defense of free will, but an act of denying people having a free will in the first place. Sure, there should be certain checkboxes to be ticked off first. But e.g. if the whole family and friends speak out in favor of forced treatment in front of a judge, it should be regarded as one such checkbox. In a country like Germany, with generous social services that even provides housing if your landlord evicts you, the vast majority of non-immigrant homeless are homeless because of schizophrenia. The friends and relatives I know affected by it, are only not homeless because we had to pull every legal string possible, so that social services don't treat them like the rest of their customers.

hutzlibu 8y ago
"What I've encountered though is, that those people who claim to speak for the affected ones don't have a friend or relative with this condition and have never even met such a person." Ok, does meeting here qualifys as meeting? I am very against AOT and I did experience the problem first hand. A case which ended tragically not because the lack of, but because of a attempted AOT. As they can also worsen things. Especially if the patient is very sensitive to force.
- woodpanel 8y ago
  Like I said, anecdotal (indicating I don't assume to have more datapoints to make it a study). No need for passive aggressiveness, I just shared my observations, which include multiple cases in which everyone would have benefitted from AOT.
tremon 8y ago
Two words: legal guardianship. We already have constructs in society for people that do not have the ability to care for themselves (temporarily or permanently). I would not be in favor of any law that tries to deliver care through the judicial system. Instead, I would much rather support a law that allows people close to the patient (like the mother in this story) to be officially designated as health proxy, so they can force treatment if the patient is unwilling/unable. Only in cases where no such guardian is available (or is willing -- it is not an easy burden I presume) would I want the state to get involved, and even then much rather a health official than a judge.
- josephorjoe 8y ago
  How does the state not get involved in forcing medical treatment on an adult? Even if a relative is designated as a guardian, if the person refuses treatment what happens? Forcing an unwilling adult to regularly take medication is not a simple thing to do and in many cases will require physical restraint or violence (or the threats thereof). Even getting a young child to take medication can be challenging (try getting a 5 year old to go through a 2 week antibiotic treatment w a liquid antibiotic that tastes bad...).

hutzlibu 8y ago

"What I've encountered though is, that those people who claim to speak for the affected ones don't have a friend or relative with this condition and have never even met such a person." Ok, does meeting here qualifys as meeting? I am very against AOT and I did experience the problem first hand. A case which ended tragically not because the lack of, but because of a attempted AOT. As they can also worsen things. Especially if the patient is very sensitive to force.

woodpanel 8y ago
Like I said, anecdotal (indicating I don't assume to have more datapoints to make it a study). No need for passive aggressiveness, I just shared my observations, which include multiple cases in which everyone would have benefitted from AOT.

tremon 8y ago

Two words: legal guardianship. We already have constructs in society for people that do not have the ability to care for themselves (temporarily or permanently). I would not be in favor of any law that tries to deliver care through the judicial system. Instead, I would much rather support a law that allows people close to the patient (like the mother in this story) to be officially designated as health proxy, so they can force treatment if the patient is unwilling/unable. Only in cases where no such guardian is available (or is willing -- it is not an easy burden I presume) would I want the state to get involved, and even then much rather a health official than a judge.

josephorjoe 8y ago
How does the state not get involved in forcing medical treatment on an adult? Even if a relative is designated as a guardian, if the person refuses treatment what happens? Forcing an unwilling adult to regularly take medication is not a simple thing to do and in many cases will require physical restraint or violence (or the threats thereof). Even getting a young child to take medication can be challenging (try getting a 5 year old to go through a 2 week antibiotic treatment w a liquid antibiotic that tastes bad...).