4 ms·

> But there are a variety of conditions, including slavery, addiction, and psychosis, where people may voluntarily enter them but then cannot leave without help

> But there are a variety of conditions, including slavery, addiction, and psychosis, where people may voluntarily enter them but then cannot leave without help. In the case of slavery, the slave doesn't want to do something, but is forced to. In the case of addiction and psychosis, you don't want someone to do something, but he's allowed to.

wpietri 8y ago
In the case of all three, it's a condition people can enter into nominally through their own choice. Sex slavery, for example, often starts with women taking misleading distant jobs. And a lot of what was effectively slavery has been justified through a gloss of choice: http://www.pbs.org/tpt/slavery-by-another-name/home/ http://www.pbs.org/tpt/slavery-by-another-name/home/
- amadeuspagel 8y ago
  I don't deny that people sometimes make bad choices, and sometimes need help because of that. I'm just pointing out that there's a difference between involuntarily committing someone to a psychiatric hospital, forcing him to take drugs, electroshocking him, etc. and freeing him from slavery and I question whether the word help is appropriate for the former.
  - wpietri 8y ago
    The US had 4m+ slaves. If you asked every one of those about emancipation, I doubt all of them would have said yes. Given the failure to give them all sufficient resources to survive independently (e.g., 40 acres and a mule), and given how many struggled after emancipation [1], it's not clear that the word help is appropriate there either. And for the people trapped in things that are like slavery but have a gloss of voluntary acceptance, I'm sure that even more of those people would say they don't want outside help. Learned helplessness is a real phenomenon. If you're saying these issues are complex, sure, all of them are complex. But I don't think economics and primate power dynamics are any less complex than addiction and mental illness. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/jun/16/slavery-starvation-civil-war https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/jun/16/slavery-starva...
    - amadeuspagel 8y ago
      Learned helplessness means that people gave up trying to help themselves, it doesn't mean that people will not accept help. Someone who wants to do anything someone else tells him to is free to do so, even if he isn't enslaved. So freeing a slave is not equivalent to "treating" an addict, because in that case the addict is not left free to do what he wants, to "submit" voluntarily to his desire for heroin.
      - wpietri 8y ago
        I don't think you have a very good understanding of addiction. Many addicts spend a long period thinking about quitting before quitting. Many addicts try and fail main times to quit. Many addicts who have quit relapse. "Voluntary" is not a binary state. I agree they aren't identical, but they all share an important commonality.

wpietri 8y ago

In the case of all three, it's a condition people can enter into nominally through their own choice. Sex slavery, for example, often starts with women taking misleading distant jobs. And a lot of what was effectively slavery has been justified through a gloss of choice: http://www.pbs.org/tpt/slavery-by-another-name/home/ http://www.pbs.org/tpt/slavery-by-another-name/home/

amadeuspagel 8y ago
I don't deny that people sometimes make bad choices, and sometimes need help because of that. I'm just pointing out that there's a difference between involuntarily committing someone to a psychiatric hospital, forcing him to take drugs, electroshocking him, etc. and freeing him from slavery and I question whether the word help is appropriate for the former.
- wpietri 8y ago
  The US had 4m+ slaves. If you asked every one of those about emancipation, I doubt all of them would have said yes. Given the failure to give them all sufficient resources to survive independently (e.g., 40 acres and a mule), and given how many struggled after emancipation [1], it's not clear that the word help is appropriate there either. And for the people trapped in things that are like slavery but have a gloss of voluntary acceptance, I'm sure that even more of those people would say they don't want outside help. Learned helplessness is a real phenomenon. If you're saying these issues are complex, sure, all of them are complex. But I don't think economics and primate power dynamics are any less complex than addiction and mental illness. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/jun/16/slavery-starvation-civil-war https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/jun/16/slavery-starva...
  - amadeuspagel 8y ago
    Learned helplessness means that people gave up trying to help themselves, it doesn't mean that people will not accept help. Someone who wants to do anything someone else tells him to is free to do so, even if he isn't enslaved. So freeing a slave is not equivalent to "treating" an addict, because in that case the addict is not left free to do what he wants, to "submit" voluntarily to his desire for heroin.
    - wpietri 8y ago
      I don't think you have a very good understanding of addiction. Many addicts spend a long period thinking about quitting before quitting. Many addicts try and fail main times to quit. Many addicts who have quit relapse. "Voluntary" is not a binary state. I agree they aren't identical, but they all share an important commonality.