5 ms·

What about /s for sarcasm? It seems any symbol not easily typed on the QWERTY keyboard will never be relevant.

nerdponx 8y ago
The problem isn't the keyboard, it's the USB HID spec. You can easily make keyboards that can send arbitrary Unicode characters, but they still have to talk to computer in the same outdated language of scancodes.
- avian 8y ago
  Don't be so quick to dismiss something you don't understand as outdated and in need of replacement. If keyboards would send characters instead of scancodes you would lose the ability to switch keyboard layouts in software (or it would be an ugly hack, which it was before we started to use scancodes). Many people use their computers with multiple languages and find switching keyboard layouts on-the-fly very useful.
  - spongeb00b 8y ago
    The Apple Lisa was kind of half way in this direction. The Lisa ROM contained the matrix layout for each keyboard language, but it was the keyboard itself that would return both the scancode and the fixed language of the keyboard being used. And IIRC plugging in a keyboard of a different language would automatically change the system software the use that language.
  - nerdponx 8y ago
    You're absolutely right. I personally think we should have both systems: The current "position dependent" system we have now, and a system for sending Unicode.
  - rwmj 8y ago
    While there might be a handful of people who switch keyboard layouts, I imagine that different keyboard layouts causes far more problems, lost time, and engineering effort. Overall it would still be better if keyboards sent Unicode characters.
    - yiyus 8y ago
      You say you imagine different layouts cause problems and sending Unicode characters would be better, but you did not give a single reason. I regularly use different keyboard layouts and it has never been a problem. It does not suppose any lost of time or engineering effort. When you have to usually communicate in different languages (which is common for the most part of the world), it is very useful. I have also built several keyboards, and I cannot imagine the pain it would be having to define a key for every Unicode character.
      - rwmj 8y ago
        I gave several reasons: Every time I install a new computer I have to select the keyboard layout, or the layout is wrong and I cannot type properly. Think of all the user and engineering effort wasted to support this corner case of switching keyboard layouts (so the keycaps don't even match the keys sent), used by a tiny number of users. I personally know of how much work went into getting QEMU to support keyboard layouts. It has to convert characters back to scancodes so the guest OS can convert the same scancodes back to characters. It was a nightmare to get it right. Such a lot of effort for such a silly feature. > I have also built several keyboards, and I cannot imagine the pain it would be having to define a key for every Unicode character. What? There's no reason you would define a key for every Unicode character.
        yiyus 8y ago
        Many users do not even know that keyboard layouts can be changed. I think you are hugely overestimating the effort spent in this. I understand this could be tricky for QEMU, but emulators are always tricky. They are exceptional, not the norm. And what I don't understand, is how it would work in your ideal world. Let's assume we do not allow users to change keyboard layouts. How do I input characters for different languages? Am I supposed to have a different keyboard for every language or do I need a keyboard than can change layouts? Would those keyboards be included in laptops? How is this simpler than keyboard layouts in the OS? I do not say you would have to define a key for every Unicode character, but if the OS is expecting Unicode, either you have to define some way to send it from the keyboard, or you implement in the OS some mapping, but at that point you would just be using Unicode characters as scancodes and we would be back at square one.
jlg23 8y ago
Without sarcasm, I wonder how long keyboards will still be relevant.

The problem isn't the keyboard, it's the USB HID spec. You can easily make keyboards that can send arbitrary Unicode characters, but they still have to talk to computer in the same outdated language of scancodes.

avian 8y ago
Don't be so quick to dismiss something you don't understand as outdated and in need of replacement. If keyboards would send characters instead of scancodes you would lose the ability to switch keyboard layouts in software (or it would be an ugly hack, which it was before we started to use scancodes). Many people use their computers with multiple languages and find switching keyboard layouts on-the-fly very useful.
- spongeb00b 8y ago
  The Apple Lisa was kind of half way in this direction. The Lisa ROM contained the matrix layout for each keyboard language, but it was the keyboard itself that would return both the scancode and the fixed language of the keyboard being used. And IIRC plugging in a keyboard of a different language would automatically change the system software the use that language.
- nerdponx 8y ago
  You're absolutely right. I personally think we should have both systems: The current "position dependent" system we have now, and a system for sending Unicode.
- rwmj 8y ago
  While there might be a handful of people who switch keyboard layouts, I imagine that different keyboard layouts causes far more problems, lost time, and engineering effort. Overall it would still be better if keyboards sent Unicode characters.
  - yiyus 8y ago
    You say you imagine different layouts cause problems and sending Unicode characters would be better, but you did not give a single reason. I regularly use different keyboard layouts and it has never been a problem. It does not suppose any lost of time or engineering effort. When you have to usually communicate in different languages (which is common for the most part of the world), it is very useful. I have also built several keyboards, and I cannot imagine the pain it would be having to define a key for every Unicode character.
    - rwmj 8y ago
      I gave several reasons: Every time I install a new computer I have to select the keyboard layout, or the layout is wrong and I cannot type properly. Think of all the user and engineering effort wasted to support this corner case of switching keyboard layouts (so the keycaps don't even match the keys sent), used by a tiny number of users. I personally know of how much work went into getting QEMU to support keyboard layouts. It has to convert characters back to scancodes so the guest OS can convert the same scancodes back to characters. It was a nightmare to get it right. Such a lot of effort for such a silly feature. > I have also built several keyboards, and I cannot imagine the pain it would be having to define a key for every Unicode character. What? There's no reason you would define a key for every Unicode character.
      - yiyus 8y ago
        Many users do not even know that keyboard layouts can be changed. I think you are hugely overestimating the effort spent in this. I understand this could be tricky for QEMU, but emulators are always tricky. They are exceptional, not the norm. And what I don't understand, is how it would work in your ideal world. Let's assume we do not allow users to change keyboard layouts. How do I input characters for different languages? Am I supposed to have a different keyboard for every language or do I need a keyboard than can change layouts? Would those keyboards be included in laptops? How is this simpler than keyboard layouts in the OS? I do not say you would have to define a key for every Unicode character, but if the OS is expecting Unicode, either you have to define some way to send it from the keyboard, or you implement in the OS some mapping, but at that point you would just be using Unicode characters as scancodes and we would be back at square one.

jlg23 8y ago

Without sarcasm, I wonder how long keyboards will still be relevant.