4 ms·

If you dont think having guns would change this situation, you are oblivious.

lhorie 8y ago
I never said guns would not change the situation, but I do believe they would make things worse. When was the last time you've heard of a gun-wielding vigilante saving the day in the US? Was he in his car with his family getting robbed by 3 teenagers at a stop light? I lived in Brazil and I've been robbed and I've witnessed people being shot in gang fights, and I don't see how having a gun on me would've helped, so forgive me if I'm cynical of armchair vigilantism.
- malandrew 8y ago
  This happened in Brazil: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VThEm-UhFIs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VThEm-UhFIs I suspect that the reason you don't hear about a "gun-wielding vigilante saving the day in the US" has more to do with the media sources you consume. Here is a scholarly article detailing how common defensive gun use is in the United States: https://scholarlycommons.law.northwestern.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=&httpsredir=1&article=6853&context=jclc https://scholarlycommons.law.northwestern.edu/cgi/viewconten... Estimates range from 100,000 to 2.5 million. Even at the very very low end of those estimates, there are at least 100,000 instances of a "gun-wielding vigilante saving the day in the US" every year that you never hear about. I also suspect it's hard to understand how a gun would have helped you when you don't know how to use a gun, which I suspect is the case given your position on guns from this thread. It's entirely possible for the average citizen to acquire the same firearm training as a police officer or soldier and therefore be capable of providing the same level of protection.
  - lhorie 8y ago
    I could also show a bunch of cases where someone reacted and died. We could be cherrypicking stories to the end of times, even. At the end of the day, while it's easy to say you yourself could've protected yourself (because macho power amirite?), it takes borderline sociopathic composition for someone to say with a straight face that their mother should not only carry a gun but also react to a robbery and shoot a living person if the situation calls for it. > It's entirely possible for the average citizen The average salary in Brazil is like $700 per month. You'd have to be quite privileged indeed to be able to afford something as extravagant as shooting classes.
    - malandrew 8y ago
      People earning $700 a month aren't the people who are getting mugged on a regular basis. You can't even pull out your cell phone in many places. Furthermore, I didn't even advocate for someone's mother to carry again. That's a weak strawman. I'm advocating for responsible citizens to be allowed to purchase a gun for self defense. Not everyone needs one. The overwhelming majority don't need one and shouldn't be carrying one. Just a small minority of responsible gun owners that take time to train themselves in how to use their firearm would go a long way to acting as a deterrent. Register them. Require training. Whatever is necessary to ensure responsible people can carry them or at least keep them in their own home. Many of my friends have been robbed at gunpoint in Brazil, including my girlfriend who was robbed about 1-2 years ago. The situation is completely out of control. Here's another one from Brazil: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9S7SPrb6oj4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9S7SPrb6oj4 This kind of defensive gun use should be permitted. Também, pare de tentar me educar sobre o meu próprio país.
      - lhorie 8y ago
        > People earning $700 a month aren't the people who are getting mugged Oh, but they do. Ask your housekeeper, your kid's teacher or if you want to be statistical, literally any random person on the street. Everyone I've ever talked to, from all walks of life, has a first-hand story or knows someone who does. To be fair, my experience is mostly from the Sao Paulo/ABCD area. Maybe things are not that bad outside of Sao Paulo and Rio, and if so, good for them. > Também, pare de tentar me educar sobre o meu próprio país If I came across that way, I apologize. That was not my intention. I feel like it's fine to wish to have one more tool at your disposal if you are responsible and a financially well enough to get a gun for self-defense, but I also feel that it won't really help in the grand scheme of things, for the same reason that having a switchblade in your pocket is not the greatest idea right now. I knew a burly someone who was with his just-as-burly cop dad during a bank robbery. They -along with 30 other people- did not react, and later when he asked his dad why, his response was "well aren't you glad to be alive now". Maybe there are cases where a gun can help, but there are also cases where it won't and cases where legal gun ownership might just become another avenue for guns to get into wrong hands. There are an overwhelming number of cases where you just don't know what will happen. I'm not convinced pro-gun-ownership laws are going to be a net positive, precisely because things are so out of control, as you said yourself. You disagree, and that's fine. > The overwhelming majority don't need one and shouldn't be carrying one. Personally, with the idea in mind that I wanted to protect myself and not necessarily worry or care about the vast majority of the population, I took a route that I believe is far more effective to protect myself and completely orthogonal to the possibility that my political view might make things worse for those 200M+ people: I left Brazil.

I never said guns would not change the situation, but I do believe they would make things worse. When was the last time you've heard of a gun-wielding vigilante saving the day in the US? Was he in his car with his family getting robbed by 3 teenagers at a stop light? I lived in Brazil and I've been robbed and I've witnessed people being shot in gang fights, and I don't see how having a gun on me would've helped, so forgive me if I'm cynical of armchair vigilantism.

malandrew 8y ago
This happened in Brazil: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VThEm-UhFIs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VThEm-UhFIs I suspect that the reason you don't hear about a "gun-wielding vigilante saving the day in the US" has more to do with the media sources you consume. Here is a scholarly article detailing how common defensive gun use is in the United States: https://scholarlycommons.law.northwestern.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=&httpsredir=1&article=6853&context=jclc https://scholarlycommons.law.northwestern.edu/cgi/viewconten... Estimates range from 100,000 to 2.5 million. Even at the very very low end of those estimates, there are at least 100,000 instances of a "gun-wielding vigilante saving the day in the US" every year that you never hear about. I also suspect it's hard to understand how a gun would have helped you when you don't know how to use a gun, which I suspect is the case given your position on guns from this thread. It's entirely possible for the average citizen to acquire the same firearm training as a police officer or soldier and therefore be capable of providing the same level of protection.
- lhorie 8y ago
  I could also show a bunch of cases where someone reacted and died. We could be cherrypicking stories to the end of times, even. At the end of the day, while it's easy to say you yourself could've protected yourself (because macho power amirite?), it takes borderline sociopathic composition for someone to say with a straight face that their mother should not only carry a gun but also react to a robbery and shoot a living person if the situation calls for it. > It's entirely possible for the average citizen The average salary in Brazil is like $700 per month. You'd have to be quite privileged indeed to be able to afford something as extravagant as shooting classes.
  - malandrew 8y ago
    People earning $700 a month aren't the people who are getting mugged on a regular basis. You can't even pull out your cell phone in many places. Furthermore, I didn't even advocate for someone's mother to carry again. That's a weak strawman. I'm advocating for responsible citizens to be allowed to purchase a gun for self defense. Not everyone needs one. The overwhelming majority don't need one and shouldn't be carrying one. Just a small minority of responsible gun owners that take time to train themselves in how to use their firearm would go a long way to acting as a deterrent. Register them. Require training. Whatever is necessary to ensure responsible people can carry them or at least keep them in their own home. Many of my friends have been robbed at gunpoint in Brazil, including my girlfriend who was robbed about 1-2 years ago. The situation is completely out of control. Here's another one from Brazil: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9S7SPrb6oj4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9S7SPrb6oj4 This kind of defensive gun use should be permitted. Também, pare de tentar me educar sobre o meu próprio país.
    - lhorie 8y ago
      > People earning $700 a month aren't the people who are getting mugged Oh, but they do. Ask your housekeeper, your kid's teacher or if you want to be statistical, literally any random person on the street. Everyone I've ever talked to, from all walks of life, has a first-hand story or knows someone who does. To be fair, my experience is mostly from the Sao Paulo/ABCD area. Maybe things are not that bad outside of Sao Paulo and Rio, and if so, good for them. > Também, pare de tentar me educar sobre o meu próprio país If I came across that way, I apologize. That was not my intention. I feel like it's fine to wish to have one more tool at your disposal if you are responsible and a financially well enough to get a gun for self-defense, but I also feel that it won't really help in the grand scheme of things, for the same reason that having a switchblade in your pocket is not the greatest idea right now. I knew a burly someone who was with his just-as-burly cop dad during a bank robbery. They -along with 30 other people- did not react, and later when he asked his dad why, his response was "well aren't you glad to be alive now". Maybe there are cases where a gun can help, but there are also cases where it won't and cases where legal gun ownership might just become another avenue for guns to get into wrong hands. There are an overwhelming number of cases where you just don't know what will happen. I'm not convinced pro-gun-ownership laws are going to be a net positive, precisely because things are so out of control, as you said yourself. You disagree, and that's fine. > The overwhelming majority don't need one and shouldn't be carrying one. Personally, with the idea in mind that I wanted to protect myself and not necessarily worry or care about the vast majority of the population, I took a route that I believe is far more effective to protect myself and completely orthogonal to the possibility that my political view might make things worse for those 200M+ people: I left Brazil.