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You're right. Here's food for thought: have sanctions ever resolved authoritarianism or dictatorship? Economic war should only be used to disable aggressive en

You're right. Here's food for thought: have sanctions ever resolved authoritarianism or dictatorship? Economic war should only be used to disable aggressive enemies, because it has never actually helped anyone better their human rights or political rights. In fact, among "passive" abusers of human rights we see that more contact with the rest of the world improves conditions.

buth_lika 8y ago
Not partaking in evil IS the result. Any further ulitarian calculations are just rationalizations. You cannot predict the ultimate outcome of any course of action fully, but you can treat others like you want to be treated. If you wouldn't others to look the other way if you got disappeared, don't look the other way when people get disappeared. Period. Not because of how it affects world history, but because of how it affects you. It's not our job to "fix China". It's like some abusive alcoholic -- it's basically their problem, but if you go out drinking with them, and hold their beer when they kill random strangers, and then continue the conversation like nothing happened, you're helping making it worse, and are direct party to normalizing it. Companies don't have to pull out of China, they'd just have to speak up and never shut up, and China would kick them out. And maybe one day, when the hangover is particularly bad, there might be a hazy memory of an upright person saying "call me when you realized this isn't working". When people protested against Hitler, it was with slogans such as "murder isn't politics". Likewise, cooperation with murderers isn't business.
- seventhtiger 8y ago
  If we completely drop the utilitarian approach, then we must admit our goal is not to help or improve, but to act morally superior. Righteous grandstanding on the world stage has a track record of failure to inspire change, or even causing conflict. If our goal is simply to keep our hands clean then perhaps we shouldn't take an interest in human rights or business. You cannot personify nations for many reasons, the foremost of which is their sovereignty. No country is beholden to another beyond war and economic sanctions. The amazing period of peace and prosperity the Earth is experiencing since WW2 can be directly attributed to the establishment of diplomatic channels and using them..
  - uRreading2slow 8y ago
    > If we completely drop the utilitarian approach Yeah, if. However you then speak of > a track record of failure to inspire change, or even causing conflict which is again completely removed from personal moral responsibility. As for the track record, there's also Apartheid and the appeasement of Hitler, so even if that wasn't utterly besides the point, I'm not convinced of your claim without any examples of it, since I couldn't come up with any myself.
  - pixl97 8y ago
    Eh, I think you mean the fear of world ending nuclear war.
  - pertymcpert 8y ago
    To keep your hands clean you also need to look outwards.
oytis 8y ago
The collapse of Soviet Union is believed to be accelerated by drop in oil prices, which in turn some beleive to be artificial. Which is not exactly sanctions, but not that sanctions couldn't have the same effect. The main problem with sanctions is that they affect economies of both confilicting parties, and democracies are generally more sensible to economic problems than authoritarian regimes.

buth_lika 8y ago

Not partaking in evil IS the result. Any further ulitarian calculations are just rationalizations. You cannot predict the ultimate outcome of any course of action fully, but you can treat others like you want to be treated. If you wouldn't others to look the other way if you got disappeared, don't look the other way when people get disappeared. Period. Not because of how it affects world history, but because of how it affects you. It's not our job to "fix China". It's like some abusive alcoholic -- it's basically their problem, but if you go out drinking with them, and hold their beer when they kill random strangers, and then continue the conversation like nothing happened, you're helping making it worse, and are direct party to normalizing it. Companies don't have to pull out of China, they'd just have to speak up and never shut up, and China would kick them out. And maybe one day, when the hangover is particularly bad, there might be a hazy memory of an upright person saying "call me when you realized this isn't working". When people protested against Hitler, it was with slogans such as "murder isn't politics". Likewise, cooperation with murderers isn't business.

seventhtiger 8y ago
If we completely drop the utilitarian approach, then we must admit our goal is not to help or improve, but to act morally superior. Righteous grandstanding on the world stage has a track record of failure to inspire change, or even causing conflict. If our goal is simply to keep our hands clean then perhaps we shouldn't take an interest in human rights or business. You cannot personify nations for many reasons, the foremost of which is their sovereignty. No country is beholden to another beyond war and economic sanctions. The amazing period of peace and prosperity the Earth is experiencing since WW2 can be directly attributed to the establishment of diplomatic channels and using them..
- uRreading2slow 8y ago
  > If we completely drop the utilitarian approach Yeah, if. However you then speak of > a track record of failure to inspire change, or even causing conflict which is again completely removed from personal moral responsibility. As for the track record, there's also Apartheid and the appeasement of Hitler, so even if that wasn't utterly besides the point, I'm not convinced of your claim without any examples of it, since I couldn't come up with any myself.
- pixl97 8y ago
  Eh, I think you mean the fear of world ending nuclear war.
- pertymcpert 8y ago
  To keep your hands clean you also need to look outwards.

oytis 8y ago

The collapse of Soviet Union is believed to be accelerated by drop in oil prices, which in turn some beleive to be artificial. Which is not exactly sanctions, but not that sanctions couldn't have the same effect. The main problem with sanctions is that they affect economies of both confilicting parties, and democracies are generally more sensible to economic problems than authoritarian regimes.