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For once, I am on Google's side with this one. Somewhat of a discourse. In the last years, "China and Russia" became a new racist norm against anything and eve

For once, I am on Google's side with this one. Somewhat of a discourse. In the last years, "China and Russia" became a new racist norm against anything and everything there. My mom and dad are absolutely against totalitarianism, but their "cardinal sin" is that they were born in Russia and they lack the financial means to move to another country. For years, they can't even buy any good cheese because the cheese was "sanctioned" as an import. Those imported goods that didn't disappear doubled and tripled in price. So whom did it hurt? I assure you that people in the government can buy any cheese they want. Back to Google and China. You can't find anything on Baidu or Sogou, it's so ridiculously bad that most of the knowledge in CNnet is concentrated within a few large systems: Wechat, Zhihu, Weibo. The idea of a "website" or a "blog" is almost unheard of, mostly because there will never be any exposure to this website or blog. Everything in China is on some kind of platforms. And as long as there are just a few big platforms, the government can control it all. Even now Google is a much better source of relevant information on the Chinese internet, and if it works in China officially, it will give regular Chinese people unprecedented flexibility and knowledge exchange. Okay, you won't be able to find Winnie the Pooh on Chinese Google, you won't be able to find Xinjiang concentration camps. But you will be able to find information about democracy, economy, physics, law, sociology, psychology, art, literature! It's equally important to let normal people of China access better information. China is incredibly high-tech and innovative, but the Chinese internet is extremely low-quality. Google is necessary here to provide the fertile soil on which thinkers can raise and start questioning their political status quo.

seventhtiger 8y ago
You're right. Here's food for thought: have sanctions ever resolved authoritarianism or dictatorship? Economic war should only be used to disable aggressive enemies, because it has never actually helped anyone better their human rights or political rights. In fact, among "passive" abusers of human rights we see that more contact with the rest of the world improves conditions.
- buth_lika 8y ago
  Not partaking in evil IS the result. Any further ulitarian calculations are just rationalizations. You cannot predict the ultimate outcome of any course of action fully, but you can treat others like you want to be treated. If you wouldn't others to look the other way if you got disappeared, don't look the other way when people get disappeared. Period. Not because of how it affects world history, but because of how it affects you. It's not our job to "fix China". It's like some abusive alcoholic -- it's basically their problem, but if you go out drinking with them, and hold their beer when they kill random strangers, and then continue the conversation like nothing happened, you're helping making it worse, and are direct party to normalizing it. Companies don't have to pull out of China, they'd just have to speak up and never shut up, and China would kick them out. And maybe one day, when the hangover is particularly bad, there might be a hazy memory of an upright person saying "call me when you realized this isn't working". When people protested against Hitler, it was with slogans such as "murder isn't politics". Likewise, cooperation with murderers isn't business.
  - seventhtiger 8y ago
    If we completely drop the utilitarian approach, then we must admit our goal is not to help or improve, but to act morally superior. Righteous grandstanding on the world stage has a track record of failure to inspire change, or even causing conflict. If our goal is simply to keep our hands clean then perhaps we shouldn't take an interest in human rights or business. You cannot personify nations for many reasons, the foremost of which is their sovereignty. No country is beholden to another beyond war and economic sanctions. The amazing period of peace and prosperity the Earth is experiencing since WW2 can be directly attributed to the establishment of diplomatic channels and using them..
    - uRreading2slow 8y ago
      > If we completely drop the utilitarian approach Yeah, if. However you then speak of > a track record of failure to inspire change, or even causing conflict which is again completely removed from personal moral responsibility. As for the track record, there's also Apartheid and the appeasement of Hitler, so even if that wasn't utterly besides the point, I'm not convinced of your claim without any examples of it, since I couldn't come up with any myself.
- oytis 8y ago
  The collapse of Soviet Union is believed to be accelerated by drop in oil prices, which in turn some beleive to be artificial. Which is not exactly sanctions, but not that sanctions couldn't have the same effect. The main problem with sanctions is that they affect economies of both confilicting parties, and democracies are generally more sensible to economic problems than authoritarian regimes.
eapriv 8y ago
A reminder: import of cheese into Russia is prohibited by the Russian government, not by the Western countries.
- mstaoru 8y ago
  Yes, isn't it a weird thing. It was meant as "retaliation" for Western sanctions against Russia, but nothing became any better after it. Not that different from the "trade war" that's going on between China and the US these days.
Yizahi 8y ago
Did they vote for their dictator over last 18 years, alongside with 72% of other supporters? Do they approve extermination of ukrainians by russian armed forces? Do they approve annexation of neighbor territories? In 2008? in 2014? It is not "racist" if the majority of population supports unethical things.
- doombolt 8y ago
  Your mindset is a prime motivator for Russians to stick with Vlad the Eldercrusher, unfortunately. Georgia tried to overrun ethnic minorities' republics it does not control, you peg it on Russia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Georgian_War#Large-scale_conflict https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Georgian_War#Large-scale... Ukraine shells large cities with rocket artillery for denying its control under the new government that nobody voted for - killing around 3000 civians in process - again, you blame those killings on Russians. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Donbass#Humanitarian_concerns https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Donbass#Humanitarian_co... Yes there is a room for discussion on both occassions, but as far as you are concerned, there's nothing to discuss.
  - Yizahi 8y ago
    Well of course russians will stick with putin, otherwise it will be way too big embarrassment to admit that your country has committed such crimes. As for russian denials about their invasions - I don't care what those liars say. They are proven patented liars, majority of the population and 100% of their government. And you are correct, there is nothing to discuss.
- mstaoru 8y ago
  Dear Ukrainian friend, I assure you the majority of the Russian population does not support it at all, but they are powerless to change it (hence the "totalitarian" sticker on the regime). I don't have that many Russian friends left, perhaps under a hundred including my family. Not a single one of them approves of this stupidity. We all voted against the dictator, but everybody understands that the voting was just a theater. A few more years, and there is some hope (unlike China where Mr. Xi is going to stay for good). The quicker all sides deal with this active state brainwashing, the better place the world will be.
macleginn 8y ago
My parents also live in Russia, but I would prefer setting up a VPN for them over their having to live behind a great information curtain any day. Also after the invasion of Ukraine, indiscriminate bombing of Syria, etc etc, I would personally find myself unable not to implement all kinds of horrible sanctions against the regime, cheese included. Otherwise it would just smack of appeasement policy. > Google is necessary here to provide the fertile soil on which thinkers can raise and start questioning their political status quo. No it’s not. Many people are actively questioning the status quo, on all levels, take a recent example: http://chinaheritage.net/journal/imminent-fears-immediate-hopes-a-beijing-jeremiad/ http://chinaheritage.net/journal/imminent-fears-immediate-ho...
- mstaoru 8y ago
  My point is that "horrible sanctions against the regime" do absolutely nothing to the regime (or might even improve it, given the "whole world against us, but we will heroically prevail" rhetoric in Russian media), but hurt the lives of normal people, who are completely powerless to do anything with the said regime.
amaccuish 8y ago
When I moved to Russia, the one thing I was asked to bring was a shit tonne of cheese.

seventhtiger 8y ago

You're right. Here's food for thought: have sanctions ever resolved authoritarianism or dictatorship? Economic war should only be used to disable aggressive enemies, because it has never actually helped anyone better their human rights or political rights. In fact, among "passive" abusers of human rights we see that more contact with the rest of the world improves conditions.

buth_lika 8y ago
Not partaking in evil IS the result. Any further ulitarian calculations are just rationalizations. You cannot predict the ultimate outcome of any course of action fully, but you can treat others like you want to be treated. If you wouldn't others to look the other way if you got disappeared, don't look the other way when people get disappeared. Period. Not because of how it affects world history, but because of how it affects you. It's not our job to "fix China". It's like some abusive alcoholic -- it's basically their problem, but if you go out drinking with them, and hold their beer when they kill random strangers, and then continue the conversation like nothing happened, you're helping making it worse, and are direct party to normalizing it. Companies don't have to pull out of China, they'd just have to speak up and never shut up, and China would kick them out. And maybe one day, when the hangover is particularly bad, there might be a hazy memory of an upright person saying "call me when you realized this isn't working". When people protested against Hitler, it was with slogans such as "murder isn't politics". Likewise, cooperation with murderers isn't business.
- seventhtiger 8y ago
  If we completely drop the utilitarian approach, then we must admit our goal is not to help or improve, but to act morally superior. Righteous grandstanding on the world stage has a track record of failure to inspire change, or even causing conflict. If our goal is simply to keep our hands clean then perhaps we shouldn't take an interest in human rights or business. You cannot personify nations for many reasons, the foremost of which is their sovereignty. No country is beholden to another beyond war and economic sanctions. The amazing period of peace and prosperity the Earth is experiencing since WW2 can be directly attributed to the establishment of diplomatic channels and using them..
  - uRreading2slow 8y ago
    > If we completely drop the utilitarian approach Yeah, if. However you then speak of > a track record of failure to inspire change, or even causing conflict which is again completely removed from personal moral responsibility. As for the track record, there's also Apartheid and the appeasement of Hitler, so even if that wasn't utterly besides the point, I'm not convinced of your claim without any examples of it, since I couldn't come up with any myself.
oytis 8y ago
The collapse of Soviet Union is believed to be accelerated by drop in oil prices, which in turn some beleive to be artificial. Which is not exactly sanctions, but not that sanctions couldn't have the same effect. The main problem with sanctions is that they affect economies of both confilicting parties, and democracies are generally more sensible to economic problems than authoritarian regimes.

eapriv 8y ago

A reminder: import of cheese into Russia is prohibited by the Russian government, not by the Western countries.

mstaoru 8y ago
Yes, isn't it a weird thing. It was meant as "retaliation" for Western sanctions against Russia, but nothing became any better after it. Not that different from the "trade war" that's going on between China and the US these days.

Yizahi 8y ago

Did they vote for their dictator over last 18 years, alongside with 72% of other supporters? Do they approve extermination of ukrainians by russian armed forces? Do they approve annexation of neighbor territories? In 2008? in 2014? It is not "racist" if the majority of population supports unethical things.

doombolt 8y ago
Your mindset is a prime motivator for Russians to stick with Vlad the Eldercrusher, unfortunately. Georgia tried to overrun ethnic minorities' republics it does not control, you peg it on Russia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Georgian_War#Large-scale_conflict https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Georgian_War#Large-scale... Ukraine shells large cities with rocket artillery for denying its control under the new government that nobody voted for - killing around 3000 civians in process - again, you blame those killings on Russians. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Donbass#Humanitarian_concerns https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Donbass#Humanitarian_co... Yes there is a room for discussion on both occassions, but as far as you are concerned, there's nothing to discuss.
- Yizahi 8y ago
  Well of course russians will stick with putin, otherwise it will be way too big embarrassment to admit that your country has committed such crimes. As for russian denials about their invasions - I don't care what those liars say. They are proven patented liars, majority of the population and 100% of their government. And you are correct, there is nothing to discuss.
mstaoru 8y ago
Dear Ukrainian friend, I assure you the majority of the Russian population does not support it at all, but they are powerless to change it (hence the "totalitarian" sticker on the regime). I don't have that many Russian friends left, perhaps under a hundred including my family. Not a single one of them approves of this stupidity. We all voted against the dictator, but everybody understands that the voting was just a theater. A few more years, and there is some hope (unlike China where Mr. Xi is going to stay for good). The quicker all sides deal with this active state brainwashing, the better place the world will be.

macleginn 8y ago

My parents also live in Russia, but I would prefer setting up a VPN for them over their having to live behind a great information curtain any day. Also after the invasion of Ukraine, indiscriminate bombing of Syria, etc etc, I would personally find myself unable not to implement all kinds of horrible sanctions against the regime, cheese included. Otherwise it would just smack of appeasement policy. > Google is necessary here to provide the fertile soil on which thinkers can raise and start questioning their political status quo. No it’s not. Many people are actively questioning the status quo, on all levels, take a recent example: http://chinaheritage.net/journal/imminent-fears-immediate-hopes-a-beijing-jeremiad/ http://chinaheritage.net/journal/imminent-fears-immediate-ho...

mstaoru 8y ago
My point is that "horrible sanctions against the regime" do absolutely nothing to the regime (or might even improve it, given the "whole world against us, but we will heroically prevail" rhetoric in Russian media), but hurt the lives of normal people, who are completely powerless to do anything with the said regime.

amaccuish 8y ago

When I moved to Russia, the one thing I was asked to bring was a shit tonne of cheese.