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I think the dev's goal has been towards balancing the difficulty not so much towards making difficult puzzles that are rewarding to beat, but towards making rea

by dixego 8y ago

I think the dev's goal has been towards balancing the difficulty not so much towards making difficult puzzles that are rewarding to beat, but towards making reasonably challenging puzzles that become rewarding to revisit and optimize as you get better at the game. In a way it sort of mirrors when you've just started learning programming, when every task takes large amounts of thinking "how am I even going to solve this?", implementing a solution that is sure to not be very optimal or even well written, vs. being an experience programming, when "how do I solve this?" is only the first step towards "how do I make my solution _better_?". I hope we keep getting more Zachtronics games for a while; there really aren't too many games out there that are comparable to them.

craftyguy 8y ago
> I think the dev's goal has been towards balancing the difficulty not so much towards making difficult puzzles that are rewarding to beat, but towards making reasonably challenging puzzles that become rewarding to revisit and optimize as you get better at the game That's been my impression as well. TIS-100 is still has a high replay value, because optimize optimize optimize!
- brian-armstrong 8y ago
  Yes, TIS-100 is super fun to optimize! Shameless plug: I think I made the Signal Averager about as fast as it can possibly be https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBfEcxvJ6aY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBfEcxvJ6aY
  - db48x 8y ago
    Factorio is another one for optimization. The main difference is that Factorio is a single puzzle that you optimize continuously throughout the game.
    - TeMPOraL 8y ago
      Not a single game I know drives home the concept of "technical debt" as much as Factorio does. Every time I want to automate manufacturing of a new thing, I end up wondering whether I should do a quick&dirty hack on existing pipelines, refactor half of my base, or just build a new one elsewhere... (And you can't just always keep choosing "build a new one elsewhere", because this increases a literal attack surface and invites literal bugs.)
      - nicusor 8y ago
        Never though about it that way, it really seems that Factorio is a very good representation of actual software development without actually containing coding (except for the logic you can do through the cables if I remember).
- daveFNbuck 8y ago
  I've found all the games to have high replay value for the same reason. It doesn't really matter how hard the game is because there are plenty of challenges beyond just passing the level.

by dixego 8y ago

craftyguy 8y ago

> I think the dev's goal has been towards balancing the difficulty not so much towards making difficult puzzles that are rewarding to beat, but towards making reasonably challenging puzzles that become rewarding to revisit and optimize as you get better at the game That's been my impression as well. TIS-100 is still has a high replay value, because optimize optimize optimize!

brian-armstrong 8y ago
Yes, TIS-100 is super fun to optimize! Shameless plug: I think I made the Signal Averager about as fast as it can possibly be https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBfEcxvJ6aY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBfEcxvJ6aY
- db48x 8y ago
  Factorio is another one for optimization. The main difference is that Factorio is a single puzzle that you optimize continuously throughout the game.
  - TeMPOraL 8y ago
    Not a single game I know drives home the concept of "technical debt" as much as Factorio does. Every time I want to automate manufacturing of a new thing, I end up wondering whether I should do a quick&dirty hack on existing pipelines, refactor half of my base, or just build a new one elsewhere... (And you can't just always keep choosing "build a new one elsewhere", because this increases a literal attack surface and invites literal bugs.)
    - nicusor 8y ago
      Never though about it that way, it really seems that Factorio is a very good representation of actual software development without actually containing coding (except for the logic you can do through the cables if I remember).
daveFNbuck 8y ago
I've found all the games to have high replay value for the same reason. It doesn't really matter how hard the game is because there are plenty of challenges beyond just passing the level.