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Whataboutism is a really poor argument. The history of the West is full of atrocities, but that doesn't somehow excuse the Chinese government from current huma

by denorm 8y ago

Whataboutism is a really poor argument. The history of the West is full of atrocities, but that doesn't somehow excuse the Chinese government from current human rights abuses. Nor does it mean that I as a Westerner do not have the right to criticize the Chinese government. In fact we have an obligation to condemn human rights abuses wherever they occur.

zaro 8y ago
It is perfectly fine argument for calling out hypocrisy though, and I think that is the main point of it.
- vertline2 8y ago
  It (whataboutism) is a favorite tactic of the "50 cent army." It's more to distract and sidetrack the topic.
- AnthonyMouse 8y ago
  The issue is that "calling out hypocrisy" is crap. Hypocrisy is not a logical fallacy. When an addict tells you that you shouldn't use heroin because it will ruin your life, the fact that they used heroin and it ruined their life doesn't make them a liar, it make them experienced. And the sole legitimate purpose in calling out hypocrisy is to get the other party to follow their own advice. But that means for Nazism and McCarthyism to be relevant you have to identify some specific present day instance of them that currently needs to be eliminated. At which point we would need to oppose that and what China is doing.
  - doombolt 8y ago
    When an addict tells you that you shouldn't use heroin it doesn't make them narcology expert. WRT "currently", does Guantanamo count?
    - AnthonyMouse 8y ago
      > When an addict tells you that you shouldn't use heroin it doesn't make them narcology expert. Especially when what really matters is academic credentials and not first-hand experience. > WRT "currently", does Guantanamo count? Sure. So let's oppose Guantanamo and what China is doing. At not let one derail every attempt to address the other one -- because stopping both is more important than which order we do it in.
claydavisss 8y ago
But you still bought an iPhone
vkou 8y ago
It doesn't excuse them, but nobody is outraged that Google is doing business with Canada, Israel, Brazil, Hungary, Malaysia, India, Saudi Arabia, the United States, etc. Maybe we should be, though? Human rights violations aren't an all or nothing. Every government of note has committed them, and many continue to commit them. You're outraged about Ughurs? Great. I'm not sure that should top your list of injustices, though. It doesn't top mine, because it's not one thats happening in my back yard. But what about their record? I don't know, what about ours? Should Google not do business in any country that mistreats it's people? Or just ones that CNN doesn't like? Or is it because it's China, it's obviously different?
- uRreading2slow 8y ago
  > Maybe we should be, though? [..] Great. I'm not sure that should top your list of injustices, though. It doesn't top mine, because it's not one thats happening in my back yard. So do you think we should care, or shouldn't we? If your point ultimately is no, we should not care, then why not be honest and say "but we shouldn't care, and here's why". And how can you claim "nobody" cares? Are you sure there aren't people in many countries who wish companies wouldn't just deal with their butcherers, but give the oppressed a voice? If you don't care, just say it. It's not about where it happens, it's about whether my "friends" are involved in it. If Google didn't use this site as a PR platform, too, there'd be no point in talking about it. But since many people here use their products, because they claim a "Hi fellow Kids" kind of humanness, it is relevant. When some total stranger acts horrible to others, but they can handle it themselves, I probably wouldn't bother getting involved. But if that guy was chatting to me 5 minutes prior to that, and considers himself someone on good terms with me, I would absolutely at least say something. It doesn't matter what's on "top" of the "list of priorites", it only matters that it matters, and that I have a position on it I must make known or be complicit by silence. It's really simple, we understand that intuitively in all sorts of situations, it doesn't get more complicated because the behaviour to have a position on gets worse. Totalitarianism in a country claimed to be on the way to become superpower #1 is on such a vastly different scale than anything else you could bring up. It's threatening the very canvas on which you might otherwise drawn and write and rank things. It's not in your backyard, you are in its backyard. I'd be perfectly fine with Google doing business in China and otherwise shutting up. But they'll parade their new awesome whatever, and that's not okay. Pick one, make your bed and then lie in it. Just consider the Noam Chomsky talks at Google: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnLWSC5p1XE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnLWSC5p1XE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3PwG4UoJ0Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3PwG4UoJ0Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2C-zWrhFqpM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2C-zWrhFqpM It's not a matter of my priorities. They do not get to decorate themselves with the feathers of Noam Chomsky, they do not get to speak on subjects like discrimination, as important as they are, as long as they play along with builders of concentration camps. My moral compass doesn't even enter into any of that. If the whole "make information accessible" stuff hadn't become a bit of a joke a long time ago, I'd add that, too. > If you do a commercial, you're off the artistic rolecall - everything you say is suspect. You're a corporate whore. There's a price on your head and every word that comes out of your mouth is now like a turd falling into my drink. End of story. -- Bill Hicks Same thing with any sort of ethical or intellectual claims and then dealing with butcherers. Super basic stuff, really. And that "it's all connected", that hardly anyone isn't somehow involved with something that sucks, knowingly or unknowingly, voluntarily or not, doesn't mean you don't do anything. The first step is to not make excuses when others criticize something. It's not even you doing something, it's you not getting in the way of those who are doing something. > But what about their record? I don't know, what about ours? You started your comment with "It doesn't excuse them"...
dang 8y ago
"Whataboutism" has become a tedious buzzword and is now pretty much a signal of offtopicness here. The word does have some curious properties. Since it's nearly always used reflexively, it reproduces the phenomenon it criticizes. That makes it a word with anti-persuasive power, i.e. it refutes itself. (Not picking on you personally! It's just a bit of a pest: https://hn.algolia.com/?query=whataboutism&sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comment&storyText=false&prefix=false&page=0 https://hn.algolia.com/?query=whataboutism&sort=byDate&dateR...)

by denorm 8y ago

zaro 8y ago

It is perfectly fine argument for calling out hypocrisy though, and I think that is the main point of it.

vertline2 8y ago
It (whataboutism) is a favorite tactic of the "50 cent army." It's more to distract and sidetrack the topic.
AnthonyMouse 8y ago
The issue is that "calling out hypocrisy" is crap. Hypocrisy is not a logical fallacy. When an addict tells you that you shouldn't use heroin because it will ruin your life, the fact that they used heroin and it ruined their life doesn't make them a liar, it make them experienced. And the sole legitimate purpose in calling out hypocrisy is to get the other party to follow their own advice. But that means for Nazism and McCarthyism to be relevant you have to identify some specific present day instance of them that currently needs to be eliminated. At which point we would need to oppose that and what China is doing.
- doombolt 8y ago
  When an addict tells you that you shouldn't use heroin it doesn't make them narcology expert. WRT "currently", does Guantanamo count?
  - AnthonyMouse 8y ago
    > When an addict tells you that you shouldn't use heroin it doesn't make them narcology expert. Especially when what really matters is academic credentials and not first-hand experience. > WRT "currently", does Guantanamo count? Sure. So let's oppose Guantanamo and what China is doing. At not let one derail every attempt to address the other one -- because stopping both is more important than which order we do it in.

claydavisss 8y ago

But you still bought an iPhone

vkou 8y ago

It doesn't excuse them, but nobody is outraged that Google is doing business with Canada, Israel, Brazil, Hungary, Malaysia, India, Saudi Arabia, the United States, etc. Maybe we should be, though? Human rights violations aren't an all or nothing. Every government of note has committed them, and many continue to commit them. You're outraged about Ughurs? Great. I'm not sure that should top your list of injustices, though. It doesn't top mine, because it's not one thats happening in my back yard. But what about their record? I don't know, what about ours? Should Google not do business in any country that mistreats it's people? Or just ones that CNN doesn't like? Or is it because it's China, it's obviously different?

uRreading2slow 8y ago
> Maybe we should be, though? [..] Great. I'm not sure that should top your list of injustices, though. It doesn't top mine, because it's not one thats happening in my back yard. So do you think we should care, or shouldn't we? If your point ultimately is no, we should not care, then why not be honest and say "but we shouldn't care, and here's why". And how can you claim "nobody" cares? Are you sure there aren't people in many countries who wish companies wouldn't just deal with their butcherers, but give the oppressed a voice? If you don't care, just say it. It's not about where it happens, it's about whether my "friends" are involved in it. If Google didn't use this site as a PR platform, too, there'd be no point in talking about it. But since many people here use their products, because they claim a "Hi fellow Kids" kind of humanness, it is relevant. When some total stranger acts horrible to others, but they can handle it themselves, I probably wouldn't bother getting involved. But if that guy was chatting to me 5 minutes prior to that, and considers himself someone on good terms with me, I would absolutely at least say something. It doesn't matter what's on "top" of the "list of priorites", it only matters that it matters, and that I have a position on it I must make known or be complicit by silence. It's really simple, we understand that intuitively in all sorts of situations, it doesn't get more complicated because the behaviour to have a position on gets worse. Totalitarianism in a country claimed to be on the way to become superpower #1 is on such a vastly different scale than anything else you could bring up. It's threatening the very canvas on which you might otherwise drawn and write and rank things. It's not in your backyard, you are in its backyard. I'd be perfectly fine with Google doing business in China and otherwise shutting up. But they'll parade their new awesome whatever, and that's not okay. Pick one, make your bed and then lie in it. Just consider the Noam Chomsky talks at Google: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnLWSC5p1XE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnLWSC5p1XE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3PwG4UoJ0Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3PwG4UoJ0Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2C-zWrhFqpM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2C-zWrhFqpM It's not a matter of my priorities. They do not get to decorate themselves with the feathers of Noam Chomsky, they do not get to speak on subjects like discrimination, as important as they are, as long as they play along with builders of concentration camps. My moral compass doesn't even enter into any of that. If the whole "make information accessible" stuff hadn't become a bit of a joke a long time ago, I'd add that, too. > If you do a commercial, you're off the artistic rolecall - everything you say is suspect. You're a corporate whore. There's a price on your head and every word that comes out of your mouth is now like a turd falling into my drink. End of story. -- Bill Hicks Same thing with any sort of ethical or intellectual claims and then dealing with butcherers. Super basic stuff, really. And that "it's all connected", that hardly anyone isn't somehow involved with something that sucks, knowingly or unknowingly, voluntarily or not, doesn't mean you don't do anything. The first step is to not make excuses when others criticize something. It's not even you doing something, it's you not getting in the way of those who are doing something. > But what about their record? I don't know, what about ours? You started your comment with "It doesn't excuse them"...

dang 8y ago

"Whataboutism" has become a tedious buzzword and is now pretty much a signal of offtopicness here. The word does have some curious properties. Since it's nearly always used reflexively, it reproduces the phenomenon it criticizes. That makes it a word with anti-persuasive power, i.e. it refutes itself. (Not picking on you personally! It's just a bit of a pest: https://hn.algolia.com/?query=whataboutism&sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comment&storyText=false&prefix=false&page=0 https://hn.algolia.com/?query=whataboutism&sort=byDate&dateR...)