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Speaking as someone who has lived through dark days myself... I want to point out that we know that exercise helps with moods. The data is there. That being sa

Speaking as someone who has lived through dark days myself... I want to point out that we know that exercise helps with moods. The data is there. That being said, mood disorders are like autoimmune diseases of the emotions. Feeling blue or anxious or clinically depressed makes it harder to work out. And if you don't, you can easily beat yourself up for not "fixing yourself." On the other side of the fence, lots of people self-report that exercise helped them. And it did. But what sometimes gets missed is that they were already starting to get better, and what motivated them to exercise was that they were already feeling better. So it's not as simple as "correlation does not equal causation," but there can be BOTH correlation and causation at work when you exercise and feel better. I say all this mainly because some folks have real trouble getting the motivation together to exercise when feeling down. Same with personal hygiene, appearance, eating well, and so forth. If anyone reading this knows intellectually that they ought to exercise, but just can't, please know that you are not unusual, this is what mood disorders do. But also know that there are many things that can help, so find the thing you can do—be it CBT, anti-depressants, whatever—and you will get yourself to a place where you are better able to do self-care like exercise. JM2C. My office walls are bereft of credentials in psychiatry.

lloeki 8y ago
> So it's not as simple as "correlation does not equal causation," but there can be BOTH correlation and causation at work when you exercise and feel better. Basically it's a feedback loop, one that you have to build up gradually. Got even a slight raise in mood and somehow feeling like you maybe could work out a little bit? Just do 2 push-ups, or 5 abs, or run 20 meters, or whatever! Congratulations, you worked out, so allow yourself to feel good about having done it (vs not doing it) instead of focusing on "this is ridiculous, I could/should have done more". Grow up from there, bit by bit. Building some form of regularity is more important than any form of intensity, because gradually this erodes the mental barrier between "I think about doing it" and "doing it". Don't even put up a schedule because that's already mental friction, just try to think of some moment that feels more appropriate, more natural, some kind of "trigger" that becomes a habit and makes you "flow into" working out (maybe coming home right after work? maybe first thing in the morning?). Don't bash yourself either if you skip sometimes, just keep up the pace on the long run. A useful trick is to pick activities and set things up so that there is basically zero friction between "I somehow feel like doing X" and actually doing it. You always have 15s to spare doing planks. You most probably have a sofa under which you can easily pop your feet for a couple abs. You don't even have to dress up for working out. I did that (zero-friction workout from home), and the next step was to go running because that meant I just had to pick shoes and a short and just go around the block (or merely to the next intersection and back) whenever I felt like it, because even the local gym is friction for the most ridiculous reasons (opening hours, cost, going there and then working out...) and your mind will use whatever excuse it can find to cop out on it. Here are some "zero-friction" beginner workouts[0][1][2][3], from which you can pick just one exercise (so that's 30/45s), or do one full round (5-10min), or, when the time comes, do multiple rounds of them. Don't fret at some exercises! e.g burpees may look intimidating: just try to do them, go super slowly if need be, maybe do just one or two at first, take your time, just don't stop. You'll get better with time. [0]: 5min cardio+abs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8SLO3JgUbQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8SLO3JgUbQ [1]: 10min HIIT https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWOTOJZuxGE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWOTOJZuxGE [2]: 7min cardio https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOQpD8aDJeI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOQpD8aDJeI [3]: 6min HIIT https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqBAR0rfjiI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqBAR0rfjiI
2bitencryption 8y ago
> If anyone reading this knows intellectually that they ought to exercise, but just can't, please know that you are not unusual, this is what mood disorders do. thanks, needed to hear this.
mpodlasin 8y ago
This is said so often and yet for me personally gym helps only very temporarily - just after workout I feel great, but the next day anxiety might kick-in again.
- lloeki 8y ago
  There is a fill-up effect (what you describe) and a build-up effect (repetition on the long run). It's like a capacitor discharging[0], so at first you have to recharge it often† to not go under the anxiety threshold, but with time it holds more charge, and charges better, so it discharges much more slowly thus reaching the threshold much less often, if at all. † Part of why it may be important to workout for shorter times/intensity, but more often. [0]: https://boolscott.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/capacitor-discharge1.jpg https://boolscott.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/capacitor-disc...
- vasco 8y ago
  Go every day
- DanBC 8y ago
  The research we have says exercise is moderately better than doing nothing, unless you only include good quality research in which case the benefit is harder to see. https://www.cochrane.org/CD004366/DEPRESSN_exercise-for-depression https://www.cochrane.org/CD004366/DEPRESSN_exercise-for-depr...
  - braythwayt 8y ago
    Thanks for posting this. The conclusion on that page is: > Exercise is moderately more effective than a control intervention for > reducing symptoms of depression, but analysis of methodologically robust > trials only shows a smaller effect in favour of exercise. When compared > to psychological or pharmacological therapies, exercise appears to be no > more effective, though this conclusion is based on a few small trials. My personal take is that the big things to note are: 1. Reducing symptoms of depression is not the same thing as treating depression. Thus, if you exercise and it works for you to reduce the symptoms, you aren't "better," you just aren't feeling as depressed. This is valuable in its own right, as the symptoms of depression can interfere with you seeking actual treatment... But it is not helpful if you think you're better, stop exercising for some reason, and fall back into depression again, possibly with a side-order of pessimism that nothing seems to work. 2. Exercise is not more effective than psychological or pharmacological therapies. Although they say there are only a few trials to establish this, I personally feel it's quite safe to assume that it is not more effective, and as per 1 above, that it can be harmful to take an "either/or" approach to exercise and other therapies. Until someone shows me research saying that exercise in conjunction with therapy is worse than therapy alone, I personally try to do both. --- The uncomfortable truth about exercise is that a large number of people with mood disorders self-medicate their symptoms with endorphins. When that is used as an alternative to therapy, it may be harmful.
throwAwayXYZ69 8y ago
I just want to attest how true this is. Exercise is amazing, once you have done it. I try to get myself to exercise (run or gym) at least 4 days a week, but some days are harder than others.
- dvlsg 8y ago
  I find alternating the type of exercise to be helpful too. If I had to go to the gym 7 days a week, I'd get really bored. So instead, some days I hit the gym, other days I practice my drums (playing fast metal / punk so I'm tired and sweaty when I'm finished).
127 8y ago
The entire process of working out and going to the gym is war against depression. It's just not lifting heavy weights, it's also about being able to tolerate boredom, fear, pain and social judgement.
DanBC 8y ago
> I want to point out that we know that exercise helps with moods. The data is there. No, we really don't. We don't even have evidence that exercise is better than doing nothing.
- braythwayt 8y ago
  Actually, we do. It's not a cure-all. You shouldn't suddenly become a rabid "big psychiatry and big pharama are frauds, just exercise, eat right, and get 8 hours of sleep" zealot. But modest improvements in symptoms have been shown time and time again. More modest than many claim, but non-zero. The link you posted says so: > Exercise is moderately more effective than a control intervention for > reducing symptoms of depression, but analysis of methodologically robust > trials only shows a smaller effect in favour of exercise. And it also recommends further research to discover what kinds of exercise are most effective: > The reviewers recommend that future research should look in more detail > at what types of exercise could most benefit people with depression, and > the number and duration of sessions which are of most benefit. https://www.cochrane.org/CD004366/DEPRESSN_exercise-for-depression https://www.cochrane.org/CD004366/DEPRESSN_exercise-for-depr...
  - DanBC 8y ago
    Just so we're clear: exercise is moderately better than doing nothing unless you only include good studies, when even that modest benefit disappears. Exercise as a treatment for depression does nothing for most people, and has only a tiny effect for the rest.
    - braythwayt 8y ago
      It would help if you would quote the relevant explanation that explains why their own summary—and I quote it again—does not say what I think it says. The "Author's Summary" says: > analysis of methodologically robust trials only shows a smaller effect in favour of exercise. The summary does not seem to say that that the effect disappears. The summary seems to say that the effect is smaller when you only include "methodologically robust" studies, which I interpret to be synonymous with what you describe as "good" studies. Can you please share what you're reading that says that the effect disappears entirely? Or perhaps you are quoting a different review than the one you linked?

lloeki 8y ago

> So it's not as simple as "correlation does not equal causation," but there can be BOTH correlation and causation at work when you exercise and feel better. Basically it's a feedback loop, one that you have to build up gradually. Got even a slight raise in mood and somehow feeling like you maybe could work out a little bit? Just do 2 push-ups, or 5 abs, or run 20 meters, or whatever! Congratulations, you worked out, so allow yourself to feel good about having done it (vs not doing it) instead of focusing on "this is ridiculous, I could/should have done more". Grow up from there, bit by bit. Building some form of regularity is more important than any form of intensity, because gradually this erodes the mental barrier between "I think about doing it" and "doing it". Don't even put up a schedule because that's already mental friction, just try to think of some moment that feels more appropriate, more natural, some kind of "trigger" that becomes a habit and makes you "flow into" working out (maybe coming home right after work? maybe first thing in the morning?). Don't bash yourself either if you skip sometimes, just keep up the pace on the long run. A useful trick is to pick activities and set things up so that there is basically zero friction between "I somehow feel like doing X" and actually doing it. You always have 15s to spare doing planks. You most probably have a sofa under which you can easily pop your feet for a couple abs. You don't even have to dress up for working out. I did that (zero-friction workout from home), and the next step was to go running because that meant I just had to pick shoes and a short and just go around the block (or merely to the next intersection and back) whenever I felt like it, because even the local gym is friction for the most ridiculous reasons (opening hours, cost, going there and then working out...) and your mind will use whatever excuse it can find to cop out on it. Here are some "zero-friction" beginner workouts[0][1][2][3], from which you can pick just one exercise (so that's 30/45s), or do one full round (5-10min), or, when the time comes, do multiple rounds of them. Don't fret at some exercises! e.g burpees may look intimidating: just try to do them, go super slowly if need be, maybe do just one or two at first, take your time, just don't stop. You'll get better with time. [0]: 5min cardio+abs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8SLO3JgUbQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8SLO3JgUbQ [1]: 10min HIIT https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWOTOJZuxGE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWOTOJZuxGE [2]: 7min cardio https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOQpD8aDJeI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOQpD8aDJeI [3]: 6min HIIT https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqBAR0rfjiI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqBAR0rfjiI

2bitencryption 8y ago

> If anyone reading this knows intellectually that they ought to exercise, but just can't, please know that you are not unusual, this is what mood disorders do. thanks, needed to hear this.

mpodlasin 8y ago

This is said so often and yet for me personally gym helps only very temporarily - just after workout I feel great, but the next day anxiety might kick-in again.

lloeki 8y ago
There is a fill-up effect (what you describe) and a build-up effect (repetition on the long run). It's like a capacitor discharging[0], so at first you have to recharge it often† to not go under the anxiety threshold, but with time it holds more charge, and charges better, so it discharges much more slowly thus reaching the threshold much less often, if at all. † Part of why it may be important to workout for shorter times/intensity, but more often. [0]: https://boolscott.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/capacitor-discharge1.jpg https://boolscott.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/capacitor-disc...
vasco 8y ago
Go every day
DanBC 8y ago
The research we have says exercise is moderately better than doing nothing, unless you only include good quality research in which case the benefit is harder to see. https://www.cochrane.org/CD004366/DEPRESSN_exercise-for-depression https://www.cochrane.org/CD004366/DEPRESSN_exercise-for-depr...
- braythwayt 8y ago
  Thanks for posting this. The conclusion on that page is: > Exercise is moderately more effective than a control intervention for > reducing symptoms of depression, but analysis of methodologically robust > trials only shows a smaller effect in favour of exercise. When compared > to psychological or pharmacological therapies, exercise appears to be no > more effective, though this conclusion is based on a few small trials. My personal take is that the big things to note are: 1. Reducing symptoms of depression is not the same thing as treating depression. Thus, if you exercise and it works for you to reduce the symptoms, you aren't "better," you just aren't feeling as depressed. This is valuable in its own right, as the symptoms of depression can interfere with you seeking actual treatment... But it is not helpful if you think you're better, stop exercising for some reason, and fall back into depression again, possibly with a side-order of pessimism that nothing seems to work. 2. Exercise is not more effective than psychological or pharmacological therapies. Although they say there are only a few trials to establish this, I personally feel it's quite safe to assume that it is not more effective, and as per 1 above, that it can be harmful to take an "either/or" approach to exercise and other therapies. Until someone shows me research saying that exercise in conjunction with therapy is worse than therapy alone, I personally try to do both. --- The uncomfortable truth about exercise is that a large number of people with mood disorders self-medicate their symptoms with endorphins. When that is used as an alternative to therapy, it may be harmful.

throwAwayXYZ69 8y ago

I just want to attest how true this is. Exercise is amazing, once you have done it. I try to get myself to exercise (run or gym) at least 4 days a week, but some days are harder than others.

dvlsg 8y ago
I find alternating the type of exercise to be helpful too. If I had to go to the gym 7 days a week, I'd get really bored. So instead, some days I hit the gym, other days I practice my drums (playing fast metal / punk so I'm tired and sweaty when I'm finished).

127 8y ago

The entire process of working out and going to the gym is war against depression. It's just not lifting heavy weights, it's also about being able to tolerate boredom, fear, pain and social judgement.

DanBC 8y ago

> I want to point out that we know that exercise helps with moods. The data is there. No, we really don't. We don't even have evidence that exercise is better than doing nothing.

braythwayt 8y ago
Actually, we do. It's not a cure-all. You shouldn't suddenly become a rabid "big psychiatry and big pharama are frauds, just exercise, eat right, and get 8 hours of sleep" zealot. But modest improvements in symptoms have been shown time and time again. More modest than many claim, but non-zero. The link you posted says so: > Exercise is moderately more effective than a control intervention for > reducing symptoms of depression, but analysis of methodologically robust > trials only shows a smaller effect in favour of exercise. And it also recommends further research to discover what kinds of exercise are most effective: > The reviewers recommend that future research should look in more detail > at what types of exercise could most benefit people with depression, and > the number and duration of sessions which are of most benefit. https://www.cochrane.org/CD004366/DEPRESSN_exercise-for-depression https://www.cochrane.org/CD004366/DEPRESSN_exercise-for-depr...
- DanBC 8y ago
  Just so we're clear: exercise is moderately better than doing nothing unless you only include good studies, when even that modest benefit disappears. Exercise as a treatment for depression does nothing for most people, and has only a tiny effect for the rest.
  - braythwayt 8y ago
    It would help if you would quote the relevant explanation that explains why their own summary—and I quote it again—does not say what I think it says. The "Author's Summary" says: > analysis of methodologically robust trials only shows a smaller effect in favour of exercise. The summary does not seem to say that that the effect disappears. The summary seems to say that the effect is smaller when you only include "methodologically robust" studies, which I interpret to be synonymous with what you describe as "good" studies. Can you please share what you're reading that says that the effect disappears entirely? Or perhaps you are quoting a different review than the one you linked?