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Google's situation is similar to many American authors' experience when confronted with the choice of 1) not publishing in China. and 2) publishing a censored v

by Leary 8y ago

Google's situation is similar to many American authors' experience when confronted with the choice of 1) not publishing in China. and 2) publishing a censored version of their book. The decision is not an easy one, even for those who support freedom of information. Those who deem Google's actions unethical often fail to realize that without Google or foreign books, Chinese internet users and readers will have less access to information. Peter Hessler, an American writer detailed such the discussion of censorship in the West https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/03/09/travels-with-my-censor https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/03/09/travels-with-m... "Western commentary about censorship often turns inward, portraying limitations in other countries in a way that celebrates our own values. One of the most striking qualities of foreign portrayals of censorship in China is the apparent lack of interest in Chinese readers and editors. "

int_19h 8y ago
There is a very simple and clear line, actually. The moment you have to write a single line of code to specifically enable political censorship, you're complicit in it. Such as in this case, where they're not just talking about e.g. taking down links in search results when asked, but inserting new code into the entire Android software stack, or even writing new apps outright, to enable such censorship. And yes, of course it celebrates our own values. Why should we use any other values to judge our companies? If they don't want to be subject to this, they can always split their Chinese branch away entirely, and let it be run by the locals. Then it would be a Chinese internal matter. But when software engineers in California are implementing censorship for Chinese government, they're going to be criticized by the standards that apply in California.
- dcbadacd 8y ago
  > but inserting new code into the entire Android software stack, or even writing new apps outright, to enable such censorship. Let's not forget Apple already has done this with iOS. It's just worth mentioning that this isn't Google-specific.
qudat 8y ago
> portraying limitations in other countries in a way that celebrates our own values. This rings very true to me. Like others have commented in this thread, google is unethical because "they are disrupting the foundations of democracy by abiding by totalitarian rules" as if democracy is the one True form of governance.
- the_grue 8y ago
  Democracy is the form of governance that led to the international phenomenon that has lately been a venue for free speech, anonymity, free exchange of ideas and has enabled innumerable communities to organize and work for the common good like never before -- more widely known as the Internet. Google as a company would not have been possible without the Internet, as its core business relies on Internet remaining open and free. The less freedom users have, the less useful the Internet becomes and the less business Google is able to do. Therefore in the long term Google is shooting itself in the foot, not to mention the rest of us who are betrayed by this huge corporation which we allowed to grow in hopes that it stays true to its roots and customers. It is therefore our responsibility to take back control at this crucial point in time by regulating the responsibilities of companies such as Google to ensure that such companies can not and will not undermine our freedoms by conspiring with totalitarian regimes. If we fail to act, we will quickly find ourselves in a world where censorship and other forms of manipulation spread across Internet like cancer; even our own democratic governments will start abusing it and making up rules that benefit them or their powerful sponsors in the short term, but hurt everyone else. The Internet will become segmented and the quality of information will go down. The likelihood of someone, somewhere, snooping our traffic and using it against us will increase, until we no longer feel safe to state our opinions or share any personal info online. We will become segmented, disconnected, unorganized, going back to the pre-Internet era.
cpeterso 8y ago
> without Google or foreign books, Chinese internet users and readers will have less access to information. If Google is using the same censorship filters as other search engines operating in China, is censored Google actually providing new or different information?
- marchenko 8y ago
  This is a good point. What value is Google search in China adding beyond better-targeted and more profitable ads - a filter bubble within a filter bubble? Will Google Books be available? Is Project Gutenberg available in China?

by Leary 8y ago

int_19h 8y ago

There is a very simple and clear line, actually. The moment you have to write a single line of code to specifically enable political censorship, you're complicit in it. Such as in this case, where they're not just talking about e.g. taking down links in search results when asked, but inserting new code into the entire Android software stack, or even writing new apps outright, to enable such censorship. And yes, of course it celebrates our own values. Why should we use any other values to judge our companies? If they don't want to be subject to this, they can always split their Chinese branch away entirely, and let it be run by the locals. Then it would be a Chinese internal matter. But when software engineers in California are implementing censorship for Chinese government, they're going to be criticized by the standards that apply in California.

dcbadacd 8y ago
> but inserting new code into the entire Android software stack, or even writing new apps outright, to enable such censorship. Let's not forget Apple already has done this with iOS. It's just worth mentioning that this isn't Google-specific.

qudat 8y ago

> portraying limitations in other countries in a way that celebrates our own values. This rings very true to me. Like others have commented in this thread, google is unethical because "they are disrupting the foundations of democracy by abiding by totalitarian rules" as if democracy is the one True form of governance.

the_grue 8y ago
Democracy is the form of governance that led to the international phenomenon that has lately been a venue for free speech, anonymity, free exchange of ideas and has enabled innumerable communities to organize and work for the common good like never before -- more widely known as the Internet. Google as a company would not have been possible without the Internet, as its core business relies on Internet remaining open and free. The less freedom users have, the less useful the Internet becomes and the less business Google is able to do. Therefore in the long term Google is shooting itself in the foot, not to mention the rest of us who are betrayed by this huge corporation which we allowed to grow in hopes that it stays true to its roots and customers. It is therefore our responsibility to take back control at this crucial point in time by regulating the responsibilities of companies such as Google to ensure that such companies can not and will not undermine our freedoms by conspiring with totalitarian regimes. If we fail to act, we will quickly find ourselves in a world where censorship and other forms of manipulation spread across Internet like cancer; even our own democratic governments will start abusing it and making up rules that benefit them or their powerful sponsors in the short term, but hurt everyone else. The Internet will become segmented and the quality of information will go down. The likelihood of someone, somewhere, snooping our traffic and using it against us will increase, until we no longer feel safe to state our opinions or share any personal info online. We will become segmented, disconnected, unorganized, going back to the pre-Internet era.

cpeterso 8y ago

> without Google or foreign books, Chinese internet users and readers will have less access to information. If Google is using the same censorship filters as other search engines operating in China, is censored Google actually providing new or different information?

marchenko 8y ago
This is a good point. What value is Google search in China adding beyond better-targeted and more profitable ads - a filter bubble within a filter bubble? Will Google Books be available? Is Project Gutenberg available in China?