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I'm a developer in Bangalore. It was glorious. One thing to understand is that in India regular small time business owners are involved in a lot of tax evasion.

I'm a developer in Bangalore. It was glorious. One thing to understand is that in India regular small time business owners are involved in a lot of tax evasion. They don't report their income fully and thus always have a huge stash of cash lying around. The biggest use for this is to buy real estate. Before demonetisation, if you want to buy a house or apartment it was usual to discuss the cash and registration amount. You would register the deal for ₹5 million and pay an extra 5 million in unaccounted cash. This meant that people who honestly report their income (usually salaried) are at a huge disadvantage. I don't have 5 million lying around in cash. I'll have to pay everything from my bank account, which will get tracked eventually to the seller I purchase my house from. Now, all of this bullshit is gone. The housing market is much more reasonable, there is no talk of cash payment. I love it. Even initially, I didn't have to stand in ATM lines, because I always use my cc. Where they don't accept cc, they accept Paytm.

mandeepj 8y ago
> Now, all of this bullshit is gone What? > I'll have to pay everything from my bank account, which will get tracked eventually to the seller I purchase my house from. Sorry dude. You are disconnected from reality. Workaround always exist. People still prefer to pay, as much as possible in cash, to save on that huge registration fees. This demonitization was just a smoke in people's eyes. Those big thugs are still scaming the banks and fleeing the country with billions of Rupees.
- dingo_bat 8y ago
  > You are disconnected from reality. I can only talk from my experience. Me and my father searched for an apartment about 6 months before the demonetisation. And I'm searching one for me now. There is a clear difference.
  - kamaal 8y ago
    What are the issues you are facing while buying an apartment? Keep note that any builder where software engineers buy, the big builder types, do not take cash money. In fact the payment schedule and mechanism is all in cheque or RTGS transactions. So that is barely a problem with or without any government action. Even in the worst case you still have to submit your PAN, so the government can easily audit your case even in case of cash transactions. If you are complaining about the bribe you have to pay during property registration. Make note you will be made to pay that even you do not do undervalue registration and pay the full amount. They charge you bribe even if all your papers are right. That sort of corruption can already be dealt with. But no one really tries hard enough because you have to burn down the whole system to do that. Every table in the registration office takes a cut to pass a paper to the next table. If your whole system is corrupt top down, you have little hope to fight these things apart from long term social reforms.
- kumarvvr 8y ago
  > Workaround always exist Of course. Every system has workarounds. > People still prefer to pay, as much as possible in cash, to save on that huge registration fees. For large real-estate companies, like Aparna Constructions in Hyderabad, most of the transaction is with fully accounted money. About 10% of the transaction is with un-accounted for cash. Cash transactions are happening with smaller builders, but even they are finding it difficult to find buyers with a lot of liquid cash. Now most of the money is being moved through faceless anonymous companies, and those are a step above unaccounted cash, when it comes to tracking and monitoring cash flow in the economy. > This demonitization was just a smoke in people's eyes. Perhaps, but along with the introduction of GST, I now find even traditional traders who usually prefer not to give a bill with a sale (for construction items, cement, steel, electrical wires, equipment, etc) are insisting on a GST bill. It was a really big surprise to me. Also, this is a political masterstroke. Most of the country is below middle class and hardly every see a 2000 Rs. note. Most of them don't have much liquid cash. Most of them are happy that the rich are finally 'getting it' as in, finally there is someone in power who is not afraid to walk the talk. Whether this is just smoke and mirrors is a different debate. But for most of the country, most of the poor people in the country, it's a eye-brow raising move, a very big talking point for worker level party operatives. My personal opinion is that these sorts of actions are required to take the populace from cash to digital transactions. Waiting for natural course of movement to digital transactions will take an un-accptably long time. With demonitization, many farmers, people in remote villages, even street vendors are using digital transactions. Credit-card use has increased, digital payments from mobile phones has increased. Most importantly, the concept of digital transactions, virtual cash, in some very remote places, even the concept of bank accounts has entered into the greater public consciousness. > Those big thugs are still scaming the banks and fleeing the country with billions of Rupees. This happens in even the most developed countries. Even in the US, Europe, UK etc. The only difference is there the money is transferred to accounts in the Cayman islands, here in India, perhaps some other route.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - kamaal 8y ago
    >>Cash transactions are happening with smaller builders, but even they are finding it difficult to find buyers with a lot of liquid cash. Its impossible to register a property in Karnataka, without a PAN card/number. So in short for high value transaction its already possible to have tax accountability. Same with jewelry. The question is that of enforcement. You don't need to demonetize anything for these things. >>Perhaps, but along with the introduction of GST, I now find even traditional traders who usually prefer not to give a bill with a sale (for construction items, cement, steel, electrical wires, equipment, etc) are insisting on a GST bill. It was a really big surprise to me. What is going to be a bigger surprise to you is discovering a few years down the lane that a full scale parallel unregulated economy is in motion. In fact that is already the case with a lot of small time things now. >>Also, this is a political masterstroke. Lol >>Most of the country is below middle class and hardly every see a 2000 Rs. note. Middle class these days is like people who make a good 30-40K a month. These people see a lot of high value notes. >>Most of them are happy that the rich are finally 'getting it' What do you think the year is? 1985? The rich don't exactly keep their money beneath their mattress these days. >>My personal opinion is that these sorts of actions are required to take the populace from cash to digital transactions. >>With demonitization, many farmers, people in remote villages, even street vendors are using digital transactions Before you implement all these pie in the sky electronic transaction ideas. Please ensure people get electricity. In Bangalore in weekdays there are half a day power cuts. How should public do electronic transactions without electricity?.
- iamgopal 8y ago
  They are tightening them with RERA act etc. If you have noticed income tax and GST registration are sky high. So much that government had to reduce the GST. India is and will become cash free. Sooner or later.
  - dingo_bat 8y ago
    Yup, RERA is a big boon for the consumer.
    - somberi 8y ago
      In theory, yes. https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/karnataka/more-complaints-than-solutions-say-homebuyers/article24672439.ece https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/karnataka/more-compla...
intended 8y ago
How are you disadvantaged? A majority of the indian economy is in the unorganized sector - and India has large tools to ensure that we recover taxes via transaction taxes. All this does is demolish that sector - and thus harm the larger economy on which the organized sector depends. Wishes and horses - we may want the whole sector to be organized and transparent - but this isn't going to happen quickly. Its going to take time, and gradual improvement in laws AND in understanding/education + convenience for compliance. Theres an optimal path, and nothing else.
- dingo_bat 8y ago
  > How are you disadvantaged? Umm... what? Are you sure you're replying to the correct thread? > All this does is demolish that <unorganized> sector - and thus harm the larger economy on which the organized sector depends. Wrong, this converts a large part of the unorganized sector to organized. Contrary to your assertion, this has helped include the large unorganized sector in the growth story of the country. I believe this is why we're seeing record economic growth. > but this isn't going to happen quickly. OK, doesn't mean we shouldn't try to help speed it up.
  - intended 8y ago
    No it doesn't help - are you aware of why the unorganized sector is not in the organized sector? ---- No disagreement, but this is not the path, and it really cant be sped up. The same way its going to take X amount of time for someone to climb rank in an online game, its going to take time for compliance and ability to comply to catch up. The same way you cant feed jet fuel to a fiat, you cant expect to push the economy beyond its adjustable rate. Wishes arent horses.
  - kamaal 8y ago
    >>OK, doesn't mean we shouldn't try to help speed it up. Who is 'we'? Why does this 'we' think they are entitled to decide for other the terms of economic participation?

mandeepj 8y ago

> Now, all of this bullshit is gone What? > I'll have to pay everything from my bank account, which will get tracked eventually to the seller I purchase my house from. Sorry dude. You are disconnected from reality. Workaround always exist. People still prefer to pay, as much as possible in cash, to save on that huge registration fees. This demonitization was just a smoke in people's eyes. Those big thugs are still scaming the banks and fleeing the country with billions of Rupees.

dingo_bat 8y ago
> You are disconnected from reality. I can only talk from my experience. Me and my father searched for an apartment about 6 months before the demonetisation. And I'm searching one for me now. There is a clear difference.
- kamaal 8y ago
  What are the issues you are facing while buying an apartment? Keep note that any builder where software engineers buy, the big builder types, do not take cash money. In fact the payment schedule and mechanism is all in cheque or RTGS transactions. So that is barely a problem with or without any government action. Even in the worst case you still have to submit your PAN, so the government can easily audit your case even in case of cash transactions. If you are complaining about the bribe you have to pay during property registration. Make note you will be made to pay that even you do not do undervalue registration and pay the full amount. They charge you bribe even if all your papers are right. That sort of corruption can already be dealt with. But no one really tries hard enough because you have to burn down the whole system to do that. Every table in the registration office takes a cut to pass a paper to the next table. If your whole system is corrupt top down, you have little hope to fight these things apart from long term social reforms.
kumarvvr 8y ago
> Workaround always exist Of course. Every system has workarounds. > People still prefer to pay, as much as possible in cash, to save on that huge registration fees. For large real-estate companies, like Aparna Constructions in Hyderabad, most of the transaction is with fully accounted money. About 10% of the transaction is with un-accounted for cash. Cash transactions are happening with smaller builders, but even they are finding it difficult to find buyers with a lot of liquid cash. Now most of the money is being moved through faceless anonymous companies, and those are a step above unaccounted cash, when it comes to tracking and monitoring cash flow in the economy. > This demonitization was just a smoke in people's eyes. Perhaps, but along with the introduction of GST, I now find even traditional traders who usually prefer not to give a bill with a sale (for construction items, cement, steel, electrical wires, equipment, etc) are insisting on a GST bill. It was a really big surprise to me. Also, this is a political masterstroke. Most of the country is below middle class and hardly every see a 2000 Rs. note. Most of them don't have much liquid cash. Most of them are happy that the rich are finally 'getting it' as in, finally there is someone in power who is not afraid to walk the talk. Whether this is just smoke and mirrors is a different debate. But for most of the country, most of the poor people in the country, it's a eye-brow raising move, a very big talking point for worker level party operatives. My personal opinion is that these sorts of actions are required to take the populace from cash to digital transactions. Waiting for natural course of movement to digital transactions will take an un-accptably long time. With demonitization, many farmers, people in remote villages, even street vendors are using digital transactions. Credit-card use has increased, digital payments from mobile phones has increased. Most importantly, the concept of digital transactions, virtual cash, in some very remote places, even the concept of bank accounts has entered into the greater public consciousness. > Those big thugs are still scaming the banks and fleeing the country with billions of Rupees. This happens in even the most developed countries. Even in the US, Europe, UK etc. The only difference is there the money is transferred to accounts in the Cayman islands, here in India, perhaps some other route.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- kamaal 8y ago
  >>Cash transactions are happening with smaller builders, but even they are finding it difficult to find buyers with a lot of liquid cash. Its impossible to register a property in Karnataka, without a PAN card/number. So in short for high value transaction its already possible to have tax accountability. Same with jewelry. The question is that of enforcement. You don't need to demonetize anything for these things. >>Perhaps, but along with the introduction of GST, I now find even traditional traders who usually prefer not to give a bill with a sale (for construction items, cement, steel, electrical wires, equipment, etc) are insisting on a GST bill. It was a really big surprise to me. What is going to be a bigger surprise to you is discovering a few years down the lane that a full scale parallel unregulated economy is in motion. In fact that is already the case with a lot of small time things now. >>Also, this is a political masterstroke. Lol >>Most of the country is below middle class and hardly every see a 2000 Rs. note. Middle class these days is like people who make a good 30-40K a month. These people see a lot of high value notes. >>Most of them are happy that the rich are finally 'getting it' What do you think the year is? 1985? The rich don't exactly keep their money beneath their mattress these days. >>My personal opinion is that these sorts of actions are required to take the populace from cash to digital transactions. >>With demonitization, many farmers, people in remote villages, even street vendors are using digital transactions Before you implement all these pie in the sky electronic transaction ideas. Please ensure people get electricity. In Bangalore in weekdays there are half a day power cuts. How should public do electronic transactions without electricity?.
iamgopal 8y ago
They are tightening them with RERA act etc. If you have noticed income tax and GST registration are sky high. So much that government had to reduce the GST. India is and will become cash free. Sooner or later.
- dingo_bat 8y ago
  Yup, RERA is a big boon for the consumer.
  - somberi 8y ago
    In theory, yes. https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/karnataka/more-complaints-than-solutions-say-homebuyers/article24672439.ece https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/karnataka/more-compla...

intended 8y ago

How are you disadvantaged? A majority of the indian economy is in the unorganized sector - and India has large tools to ensure that we recover taxes via transaction taxes. All this does is demolish that sector - and thus harm the larger economy on which the organized sector depends. Wishes and horses - we may want the whole sector to be organized and transparent - but this isn't going to happen quickly. Its going to take time, and gradual improvement in laws AND in understanding/education + convenience for compliance. Theres an optimal path, and nothing else.

dingo_bat 8y ago
> How are you disadvantaged? Umm... what? Are you sure you're replying to the correct thread? > All this does is demolish that <unorganized> sector - and thus harm the larger economy on which the organized sector depends. Wrong, this converts a large part of the unorganized sector to organized. Contrary to your assertion, this has helped include the large unorganized sector in the growth story of the country. I believe this is why we're seeing record economic growth. > but this isn't going to happen quickly. OK, doesn't mean we shouldn't try to help speed it up.
- intended 8y ago
  No it doesn't help - are you aware of why the unorganized sector is not in the organized sector? ---- No disagreement, but this is not the path, and it really cant be sped up. The same way its going to take X amount of time for someone to climb rank in an online game, its going to take time for compliance and ability to comply to catch up. The same way you cant feed jet fuel to a fiat, you cant expect to push the economy beyond its adjustable rate. Wishes arent horses.
- kamaal 8y ago
  >>OK, doesn't mean we shouldn't try to help speed it up. Who is 'we'? Why does this 'we' think they are entitled to decide for other the terms of economic participation?