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Local laws in East Berlin sanctioned the murder of Germans who sought to escape. Local laws in Vichy France required people to report hidden Jews to the police.

Local laws in East Berlin sanctioned the murder of Germans who sought to escape. Local laws in Vichy France required people to report hidden Jews to the police. Local laws in America under Jim Crow forbade interracial marriage, and denied Blacks their right to vote. Would you consider it unfortunate that some held these local laws to be unethical? I’d ascribe no more legitimacy to similar laws made by an unelected, authoritarian government with a history of kidnapping, torturing, and killing nonviolent dissidents. I’m privately amazed that the U.N. Declaration of Human Rights is now a subject of controversy. Why do we believe the Chinese Communist Party when it says, “China is special, and the Chinese people do not deserve basic human freedoms?”

doombolt 8y ago
"sanctioned the murder of Germans who sought to escape" I have read a page on capital punishment in Germany, found no such claims. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_Germany https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_German...
- astebbin 8y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Peter_Fechter https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Peter_Fechter Many similar cases.
  - astebbin 8y ago
    I'd love to know why the parent has been downvoted. Further evidence, if any is needed: "The use of lethal force on the Berlin Wall was an integral part of the East German state's policy towards its border system." "The Stasi took charge of "corpse cases" and those injured while trying to cross the border, who were transported to hospitals run by the Stasi or the police where they would recuperate before being transferred to Stasi prisons. The Stasi also took sole responsibility for the disposal of the dead and their possessions. Bodies were not returned to relatives but were cremated, usually at the crematorium at Baumschulenweg. Occasionally the cost of the cremations was covered by the victims themselves using money taken from their pockets.[25] Stasi officers posing as policemen would inform the relatives, though not before trying to obtain "valuable pieces of information on the border violation". Deaths would be stated as being due to "a border provocation of his own causing", "a fatal accident of his own causing" or "drowning in a border waterway". Every border death was investigated in detail to identify how the attempt had been made, whether there were any vulnerabilities in the border system that needed to be remedied and whether anyone else had been involved. If necessary, the family, relatives, friends, colleagues and neighbours were put under surveillance." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_deaths_at_the_Berlin_Wall https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_deaths_at_the_Berlin_W...
mmirate 8y ago
> I’m privately amazed that the U.N. Declaration of Human Rights is now a subject of controversy. I'm not amazed. It tells us "thou shalt steal from the rich to give this specific set of goods to every poor person in thy nation". That's not a human right, that's a declaration of (among other things) the principle that wealth is zero-sum. (Which it fundamentally isn't.)
zaarn 8y ago
>Local laws in East Berlin sanctioned the murder of Germans who sought to escape. The local laws in East Berlin sactions up to 8 years of prison when trying to escape. Of course, most of the guards at the wall had order to shoot on sight, the number of traps and deadly traps didn't help people survive getting spotted. The order to shoot on sight (Order 101) actually ran contrary to standing east german law, it was actually illegal (not that the regime actually cared)

doombolt 8y ago

"sanctioned the murder of Germans who sought to escape" I have read a page on capital punishment in Germany, found no such claims. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_Germany https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_German...

astebbin 8y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Peter_Fechter https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Peter_Fechter Many similar cases.
- astebbin 8y ago
  I'd love to know why the parent has been downvoted. Further evidence, if any is needed: "The use of lethal force on the Berlin Wall was an integral part of the East German state's policy towards its border system." "The Stasi took charge of "corpse cases" and those injured while trying to cross the border, who were transported to hospitals run by the Stasi or the police where they would recuperate before being transferred to Stasi prisons. The Stasi also took sole responsibility for the disposal of the dead and their possessions. Bodies were not returned to relatives but were cremated, usually at the crematorium at Baumschulenweg. Occasionally the cost of the cremations was covered by the victims themselves using money taken from their pockets.[25] Stasi officers posing as policemen would inform the relatives, though not before trying to obtain "valuable pieces of information on the border violation". Deaths would be stated as being due to "a border provocation of his own causing", "a fatal accident of his own causing" or "drowning in a border waterway". Every border death was investigated in detail to identify how the attempt had been made, whether there were any vulnerabilities in the border system that needed to be remedied and whether anyone else had been involved. If necessary, the family, relatives, friends, colleagues and neighbours were put under surveillance." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_deaths_at_the_Berlin_Wall https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_deaths_at_the_Berlin_W...

mmirate 8y ago

> I’m privately amazed that the U.N. Declaration of Human Rights is now a subject of controversy. I'm not amazed. It tells us "thou shalt steal from the rich to give this specific set of goods to every poor person in thy nation". That's not a human right, that's a declaration of (among other things) the principle that wealth is zero-sum. (Which it fundamentally isn't.)

zaarn 8y ago

>Local laws in East Berlin sanctioned the murder of Germans who sought to escape. The local laws in East Berlin sactions up to 8 years of prison when trying to escape. Of course, most of the guards at the wall had order to shoot on sight, the number of traps and deadly traps didn't help people survive getting spotted. The order to shoot on sight (Order 101) actually ran contrary to standing east german law, it was actually illegal (not that the regime actually cared)