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Yet another in a long line of articles using the example of the Soviet Union or its satellites to criticize Western Europe and those who seek to emulate it. I’v

Yet another in a long line of articles using the example of the Soviet Union or its satellites to criticize Western Europe and those who seek to emulate it. I’ve yet to see one that actually contains any argument for why the version found in Western Europe must inevitably decline into the Soviet or Venezuelan model, but they’re always absolutely sure that it must. This one just declares it to be so and insults those who disagree. The result is not convincing. It’s like a burn victim arguing against fire. Yes, fire can be bad, and I’m sorry you got burned, but I’m not going to give up cooking or heating because you’ve been traumatized.

candiodari 8y ago
Then why did ALL of them evolve into those hellholes ? Let's not pretend Soviet satellite states are the only examples. Far from it. It's not like this happened in one place. This happened in Cuba, in Venezuela, in Soviet Union. ... and the utter disaster that those were were actually still superior to what happened in China, Vietnam and other South Asian nations. This is the best, not the worst, that socialism has brought: > “The third tier socialized healthcare is for everyone else. Yes, it was free. But it also was a disaster of epic proportions. Truly horror movie like. You may think I'm exaggerating, but I'm not. Countless people died because of lack of medicine, filthy operating rooms,…” > “…lack of heat in the winter, broken down ambulances, overcrowded emergency rooms and last but not least doctors who were so poorly paid that they had to accept bribes in order to give proper attention to patients. This situation remained a disaster for another decade after…” The worst, of course, was outright mass murder. And that's ignoring that both Cuba and the Soviet Union, which, again, are the better examples, did cause famines to eliminate populations. But again, a famine is far preferable to the "cultural revolution".
- mikeash 8y ago
  France, Germany, Sweden, and many others seem to be doing fine, so it doesn’t look like “all” of them, not even close.
  - candiodari 8y ago
    Yes, because those are excellent examples of socialist medicine. I've lived in France, so euhm ... shows what you know I guess. (France has private, mostly employer provided healthcare (though you can pay for yourself if you want), and emergency and basic care available for free. Whilst yes the free part covers more than it does in the US, it's definitely not socialist medicine. Also, more and more doctors refuse to treat patients for the basic care (which they're allowed to do))
  - 1996 8y ago
    Venezuela was fine during the oil boom, Russia was fine in the 1960s. The issue is sustainability. Besides pensions at the local level, nothing to worry about for us in the US. Those in France, Germany, Sweden must deal with major issue, including homegrown terrorists, low economic activity, decline in population, lack of control of their monetary policy. They will crash, as all socialistic country do, when their ressources are exhausted or when their population stops believing the dream their government sells them. How many of the top internet companies are located there? Which of the top blockchain comparies are located there? Unless you think it will be different for the next technology, they will keep missing the boat and falling more and more behind. Average income in Mississipi, the poorest US state, is higher than in these countries- look at the price of gas and electronics here vs there - and so on. Here buying a tiny car, without AC or automatic transmission would be weird. People did that a long time ago, but we can afford better now. There, it is still the norm. It is just a question of when they fail
    - mikeash 8y ago
      So, the proof that the Soviet lessons of socialism apply to Western Europe is that all socialist countries eventually suffer from it. The proof of that is that all of them have. If they haven’t, they will. That’s just circular reasoning! All socialist countries fail because all of them will fail if they haven’t already. What? What’s the deal with your Mississippi statement? A quick search shows Mississippi with a median income of about $20,000, and France (for example) at over $30,000.
      - 8y ago
mnm1 8y ago
Equating democratic socialism in western Europe with what happened in Romania is fucking disgusting. Having lived in communist Romania, I can say that it was nothing at all like western Europe nor is western Europe, or other places like it, in danger of turning out like communist Romania. These are the rantings of an idiot who simplifies politics to left and right without nuance or understanding. My family and I lived in communist Romania and I don't need to be reminded again why we ran away or why America is closer now to communist Romania than western Europe. I'm talking Trump's America, not Bernie's. But I guess this article just panders to simple-minded morons who understand nothing of actual history or politics.
devnull791101 8y ago
lol #notrealsocialism. the basic course of all socialist systems is 1 : praise as it does well at first 2 : accusations of external influences when it starts failing 3 : #notrealsocialism every time

candiodari 8y ago

Then why did ALL of them evolve into those hellholes ? Let's not pretend Soviet satellite states are the only examples. Far from it. It's not like this happened in one place. This happened in Cuba, in Venezuela, in Soviet Union. ... and the utter disaster that those were were actually still superior to what happened in China, Vietnam and other South Asian nations. This is the best, not the worst, that socialism has brought: > “The third tier socialized healthcare is for everyone else. Yes, it was free. But it also was a disaster of epic proportions. Truly horror movie like. You may think I'm exaggerating, but I'm not. Countless people died because of lack of medicine, filthy operating rooms,…” > “…lack of heat in the winter, broken down ambulances, overcrowded emergency rooms and last but not least doctors who were so poorly paid that they had to accept bribes in order to give proper attention to patients. This situation remained a disaster for another decade after…” The worst, of course, was outright mass murder. And that's ignoring that both Cuba and the Soviet Union, which, again, are the better examples, did cause famines to eliminate populations. But again, a famine is far preferable to the "cultural revolution".

mikeash 8y ago
France, Germany, Sweden, and many others seem to be doing fine, so it doesn’t look like “all” of them, not even close.
- candiodari 8y ago
  Yes, because those are excellent examples of socialist medicine. I've lived in France, so euhm ... shows what you know I guess. (France has private, mostly employer provided healthcare (though you can pay for yourself if you want), and emergency and basic care available for free. Whilst yes the free part covers more than it does in the US, it's definitely not socialist medicine. Also, more and more doctors refuse to treat patients for the basic care (which they're allowed to do))
- 1996 8y ago
  Venezuela was fine during the oil boom, Russia was fine in the 1960s. The issue is sustainability. Besides pensions at the local level, nothing to worry about for us in the US. Those in France, Germany, Sweden must deal with major issue, including homegrown terrorists, low economic activity, decline in population, lack of control of their monetary policy. They will crash, as all socialistic country do, when their ressources are exhausted or when their population stops believing the dream their government sells them. How many of the top internet companies are located there? Which of the top blockchain comparies are located there? Unless you think it will be different for the next technology, they will keep missing the boat and falling more and more behind. Average income in Mississipi, the poorest US state, is higher than in these countries- look at the price of gas and electronics here vs there - and so on. Here buying a tiny car, without AC or automatic transmission would be weird. People did that a long time ago, but we can afford better now. There, it is still the norm. It is just a question of when they fail
  - mikeash 8y ago
    So, the proof that the Soviet lessons of socialism apply to Western Europe is that all socialist countries eventually suffer from it. The proof of that is that all of them have. If they haven’t, they will. That’s just circular reasoning! All socialist countries fail because all of them will fail if they haven’t already. What? What’s the deal with your Mississippi statement? A quick search shows Mississippi with a median income of about $20,000, and France (for example) at over $30,000.
    - 8y ago

mnm1 8y ago

Equating democratic socialism in western Europe with what happened in Romania is fucking disgusting. Having lived in communist Romania, I can say that it was nothing at all like western Europe nor is western Europe, or other places like it, in danger of turning out like communist Romania. These are the rantings of an idiot who simplifies politics to left and right without nuance or understanding. My family and I lived in communist Romania and I don't need to be reminded again why we ran away or why America is closer now to communist Romania than western Europe. I'm talking Trump's America, not Bernie's. But I guess this article just panders to simple-minded morons who understand nothing of actual history or politics.

devnull791101 8y ago

lol #notrealsocialism. the basic course of all socialist systems is 1 : praise as it does well at first 2 : accusations of external influences when it starts failing 3 : #notrealsocialism every time