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The answer is that yes, I don't -- fully -- trust anyone or anything I don't personally know. With that said, there are criteria by which I decide to trust a g

The answer is that yes, I don't -- fully -- trust anyone or anything I don't personally know. With that said, there are criteria by which I decide to trust a given company more or less, such as their business model, age, track record, size, and target audience. For example, I have some trust in apple because their business model relies on selling hardware and they have a decent track record (apple v fbi). I also have some trust in microsoft because a significant portion of their target audience is enterprise -- banks run windows me, the economy runs on excel. They have enterprise software that come with certain guarantees, and if they break those guarantees for me, a $10 customer, then they'll lose the $10 million customers, so I feel secure in using their enterprise software. However, this is tempered by windows 10 spyware, and makes me more reluctant to use consumer versions of their software.

mehrdadn 8y ago
I'm seeing what amounts to a lot of complaints and negative comments about what you wouldn't do, but for some reason you're still not actually answering the question of what you would do. The question has been quite clear and concrete: which DNS servers you would rationally trust more than Google's, and why. So far all I see that you've said is that you don't trust Google, that you in fact don't fully trust anyone, and that you would trust Microsoft and Apple more than Google---all three of which dodge the actual question of whose DNS servers you would use and why you would rationally trust them more than Google. Apple and Microsoft don't have public DNS servers (AFAIK? if they have ones that you're advocating then by all means correct me) so it wouldn't make any difference even if you'd trust them with your newborn baby. Regardless of whom else you pick, it really does not make any difference whether that DNS server(s) is getting 1% of your trust or 99% of it -- it's still going to be the one getting your queries, and I'm trying to understand whose server(s) you're picking and why it's rational to choose theirs over Google's.
- speedplane 8y ago
  Most people pay for ISP service and get a DNS server included in the price. It's a clear quid-pro-quo. If they don't respect your privacy, or they generally behave badly, you can switch providers (assuming you're not one of the 50 Million US citizens with only one ISP provider). Even if you have an evil ISP, and they're selling your data for $0.50/month, you're still paying them $50/month for service. A bunch of angry customers could change their policy quickly. Few ISPs would try to squeeze those extra quarters from you, given the potential blow-back (some do, and they'll get their comeuppance). However generally, ISPs incentives are to keep you as a customer and get your fitty beans every month. However, with Google, it's not clear why they are giving DNS services away for free or what they're getting in return. It clearly costs them some money to do so, and they're not being paid for it directly. It's possible that they're doing it purely altruistically, but they also have an extremely long history of using data for advertising or other forms of monetization. I'm not saying that if you use 8.8.8.8, you'll search ads will target you. But I would bet they use your anonymized browsing history to fight bots, test internet speeds at various locations, identify browser technology, and who knows what.
  - mehrdadn 8y ago
    This is really going against the impression I've both personally gotten and seen from others here. Are you really saying you would trust Comcast or AT&T here more than Google with your DNS history? And regarding this bit: > I'm not saying that if you use 8.8.8.8, you'll search ads will target you. Hm, well others here have been suggesting this would be the case. > But I would bet they use your anonymized browsing history to fight bots, test internet speeds at various locations, identify browser technology, and who knows what. Even if I take this at face value, how are these things you listed bad things? If my DNS queries are going to fight bots, by all means, please fight bots! If they're going to help them improve internet speeds, by all means, they should do that! That's what data is good for. Everyone here is freaking out about privacy, not improved service. (!)
    - speedplane 8y ago
      Certainly Comcast and At&T are pretty untrustworthy when asked to do the right thing, and I'd pretty confidently say they're less trustworthy than Google. That said, they are selling a service, and you're paying for it. Quite a bit for it. It would be pretty stupid for AT&T to use your DNS data and risk your $150/month cable, phone, internet subscription for an extra buck or two. But with Google, you just don't know and their entire business model is predicated on selling your data. They are almost certainly using their DNS servers for some data-based operation. And a last quasi-technical point... I'm sure AT&T and Comcast have good engineers on staff, but I'm even more sure that Google has better ones. I am less concerned about AT&T and Comcast because I honestly don't think they have the wherewithal and talent to come up with ways to monetize DNS. I'm pretty sure Google could. And to your point, even if Google is giving away DNS services to only fight bots and measure internet speeds, they should at least say that in their privacy policy. They don't. They just say they keep detailed data temporarily and anonymized data long term. I don't use Google's DNS because I really have no clue what they're doing with it. In contrast, if my ISP does something, I can always try to sue them, or if that fails cancel my service.
      - charleslmunger 8y ago
        Just some related stories: https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2014/11/verizon-x-uidh https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2014/11/verizon-x-uidh http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-lazarus-20150818-column.html http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-lazarus-20150818-colum... There is no point in discussing what companies might do in some theoretical framework - they do not care about your privacy, they monetize NXDOMAIN, etc. This isn't about what might happen - these abuses have already happened.
- earenndil 8y ago
  You asked by what criteria I would trust one company over another, which seems significantly more interesting but...alright: My own ISP already knows all the ips I connect to, so telling them what the domains are doesn't tell them much, especially as the trend towards ipv6 means that multiple-domains-on-one-ip has gotten less popular. Cloudflare's main prerogative isn't to sell clicks the way google's is, which earns it points already. In addition, if you believe the official documents, they permanently log a lot less[1] than google[2]. I would also, needless to say, feel ok hosting my own dns. Quad9 and opendns both filter content, and as such I don't trust them because the fact that they're willing to do that means that they are willing to censor content if they so choose. I don't know any other dns servers off the top of my head. 1: https://developers.cloudflare.com/1.1.1.1/commitment-to-privacy/privacy-policy/privacy-policy/ https://developers.cloudflare.com/1.1.1.1/commitment-to-priv... 2: https://developers.google.com/speed/public-dns/privacy https://developers.google.com/speed/public-dns/privacy
  - mehrdadn 8y ago
    There we go! OK, so you'd trust your ISP and CloudFlare more than Google. Let's go through them. > I would also, needless to say, feel ok hosting my own dns. Yeah let's avoid options that 99%+ of people wouldn't find realistic. > Quad9 and opendns both filter content, and as such I don't trust them because the fact that they're willing to do that means that they are willing to censor content if they so choose. Right, I think I agree on that. > Cloudflare's main prerogative isn't to sell clicks the way google's is, which earns it points already. Sure, some points there for the increased likelihood of hypothetical data mishandling due to their incentives. OTOH, don't forget it was Google who found this issue in CloudFlare, which earned Google some points and earned CloudFlare /quite/ the demerits in my book... and note that this was an _actual_ massive security incident, not a hypothetical one: https://blog.cloudflare.com/incident-report-on-memory-leak-caused-by-cloudflare-parser-bug/ https://blog.cloudflare.com/incident-report-on-memory-leak-c... > My own ISP already knows all the ips I connect to, so telling them what the domains are doesn't tell them much, especially as the trend towards ipv6 means that multiple-domains-on-one-ip has gotten less popular. I find this to be quite the odd argument for most people (maybe you're in the 1% of people who uses unconventional ISPs or email/search/map/etc. sites). Not only do major ISPs (thinking e.g. Comcast, AT&T here) not exactly have a great reputation on the privacy or security front (wasn't it just a few days ago someone posted about your home address being linked to your IP on Comcast?) -- meaning whatever data they do collect is prone to being hacked even if you believe they're really honestly keeping it private, which I'm not sure I always would -- but for most people Google already knows pretty much their life. And on top of that, they do their own tracking with Google Analytics, so they already know what websites most people are visiting -- not just from home, but also from work and on the go. And unlike with your ISP, it's likely already linked to your personal identity, not just your household or work office. Oh, and in case you would like your advice to apply to those who have, say, Comcast, may I point you to quotes like this [1]: > Comcast today said it has "no plans" to sell its customers' individual Web browsing histories, but Comcast can still deliver personalized ads based on its customers' browsing history. Comcast, the nation's largest home Internet provider, said it will continue to offer customers a way to opt out of targeted ads. I don't know about you, but I would be shocked if they did this solely based on IP and did not find DNS information to be important for this task. [1] https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2017/03/comcast-we-wont-sell-browser-history-and-you-can-opt-out-of-targeted-ads/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2017/03/comcast-we-wont-...

mehrdadn 8y ago

I'm seeing what amounts to a lot of complaints and negative comments about what you wouldn't do, but for some reason you're still not actually answering the question of what you would do. The question has been quite clear and concrete: which DNS servers you would rationally trust more than Google's, and why. So far all I see that you've said is that you don't trust Google, that you in fact don't fully trust anyone, and that you would trust Microsoft and Apple more than Google---all three of which dodge the actual question of whose DNS servers you would use and why you would rationally trust them more than Google. Apple and Microsoft don't have public DNS servers (AFAIK? if they have ones that you're advocating then by all means correct me) so it wouldn't make any difference even if you'd trust them with your newborn baby. Regardless of whom else you pick, it really does not make any difference whether that DNS server(s) is getting 1% of your trust or 99% of it -- it's still going to be the one getting your queries, and I'm trying to understand whose server(s) you're picking and why it's rational to choose theirs over Google's.

speedplane 8y ago
Most people pay for ISP service and get a DNS server included in the price. It's a clear quid-pro-quo. If they don't respect your privacy, or they generally behave badly, you can switch providers (assuming you're not one of the 50 Million US citizens with only one ISP provider). Even if you have an evil ISP, and they're selling your data for $0.50/month, you're still paying them $50/month for service. A bunch of angry customers could change their policy quickly. Few ISPs would try to squeeze those extra quarters from you, given the potential blow-back (some do, and they'll get their comeuppance). However generally, ISPs incentives are to keep you as a customer and get your fitty beans every month. However, with Google, it's not clear why they are giving DNS services away for free or what they're getting in return. It clearly costs them some money to do so, and they're not being paid for it directly. It's possible that they're doing it purely altruistically, but they also have an extremely long history of using data for advertising or other forms of monetization. I'm not saying that if you use 8.8.8.8, you'll search ads will target you. But I would bet they use your anonymized browsing history to fight bots, test internet speeds at various locations, identify browser technology, and who knows what.
- mehrdadn 8y ago
  This is really going against the impression I've both personally gotten and seen from others here. Are you really saying you would trust Comcast or AT&T here more than Google with your DNS history? And regarding this bit: > I'm not saying that if you use 8.8.8.8, you'll search ads will target you. Hm, well others here have been suggesting this would be the case. > But I would bet they use your anonymized browsing history to fight bots, test internet speeds at various locations, identify browser technology, and who knows what. Even if I take this at face value, how are these things you listed bad things? If my DNS queries are going to fight bots, by all means, please fight bots! If they're going to help them improve internet speeds, by all means, they should do that! That's what data is good for. Everyone here is freaking out about privacy, not improved service. (!)
  - speedplane 8y ago
    Certainly Comcast and At&T are pretty untrustworthy when asked to do the right thing, and I'd pretty confidently say they're less trustworthy than Google. That said, they are selling a service, and you're paying for it. Quite a bit for it. It would be pretty stupid for AT&T to use your DNS data and risk your $150/month cable, phone, internet subscription for an extra buck or two. But with Google, you just don't know and their entire business model is predicated on selling your data. They are almost certainly using their DNS servers for some data-based operation. And a last quasi-technical point... I'm sure AT&T and Comcast have good engineers on staff, but I'm even more sure that Google has better ones. I am less concerned about AT&T and Comcast because I honestly don't think they have the wherewithal and talent to come up with ways to monetize DNS. I'm pretty sure Google could. And to your point, even if Google is giving away DNS services to only fight bots and measure internet speeds, they should at least say that in their privacy policy. They don't. They just say they keep detailed data temporarily and anonymized data long term. I don't use Google's DNS because I really have no clue what they're doing with it. In contrast, if my ISP does something, I can always try to sue them, or if that fails cancel my service.
    - charleslmunger 8y ago
      Just some related stories: https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2014/11/verizon-x-uidh https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2014/11/verizon-x-uidh http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-lazarus-20150818-column.html http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-lazarus-20150818-colum... There is no point in discussing what companies might do in some theoretical framework - they do not care about your privacy, they monetize NXDOMAIN, etc. This isn't about what might happen - these abuses have already happened.
earenndil 8y ago
You asked by what criteria I would trust one company over another, which seems significantly more interesting but...alright: My own ISP already knows all the ips I connect to, so telling them what the domains are doesn't tell them much, especially as the trend towards ipv6 means that multiple-domains-on-one-ip has gotten less popular. Cloudflare's main prerogative isn't to sell clicks the way google's is, which earns it points already. In addition, if you believe the official documents, they permanently log a lot less[1] than google[2]. I would also, needless to say, feel ok hosting my own dns. Quad9 and opendns both filter content, and as such I don't trust them because the fact that they're willing to do that means that they are willing to censor content if they so choose. I don't know any other dns servers off the top of my head. 1: https://developers.cloudflare.com/1.1.1.1/commitment-to-privacy/privacy-policy/privacy-policy/ https://developers.cloudflare.com/1.1.1.1/commitment-to-priv... 2: https://developers.google.com/speed/public-dns/privacy https://developers.google.com/speed/public-dns/privacy
- mehrdadn 8y ago
  There we go! OK, so you'd trust your ISP and CloudFlare more than Google. Let's go through them. > I would also, needless to say, feel ok hosting my own dns. Yeah let's avoid options that 99%+ of people wouldn't find realistic. > Quad9 and opendns both filter content, and as such I don't trust them because the fact that they're willing to do that means that they are willing to censor content if they so choose. Right, I think I agree on that. > Cloudflare's main prerogative isn't to sell clicks the way google's is, which earns it points already. Sure, some points there for the increased likelihood of hypothetical data mishandling due to their incentives. OTOH, don't forget it was Google who found this issue in CloudFlare, which earned Google some points and earned CloudFlare /quite/ the demerits in my book... and note that this was an _actual_ massive security incident, not a hypothetical one: https://blog.cloudflare.com/incident-report-on-memory-leak-caused-by-cloudflare-parser-bug/ https://blog.cloudflare.com/incident-report-on-memory-leak-c... > My own ISP already knows all the ips I connect to, so telling them what the domains are doesn't tell them much, especially as the trend towards ipv6 means that multiple-domains-on-one-ip has gotten less popular. I find this to be quite the odd argument for most people (maybe you're in the 1% of people who uses unconventional ISPs or email/search/map/etc. sites). Not only do major ISPs (thinking e.g. Comcast, AT&T here) not exactly have a great reputation on the privacy or security front (wasn't it just a few days ago someone posted about your home address being linked to your IP on Comcast?) -- meaning whatever data they do collect is prone to being hacked even if you believe they're really honestly keeping it private, which I'm not sure I always would -- but for most people Google already knows pretty much their life. And on top of that, they do their own tracking with Google Analytics, so they already know what websites most people are visiting -- not just from home, but also from work and on the go. And unlike with your ISP, it's likely already linked to your personal identity, not just your household or work office. Oh, and in case you would like your advice to apply to those who have, say, Comcast, may I point you to quotes like this [1]: > Comcast today said it has "no plans" to sell its customers' individual Web browsing histories, but Comcast can still deliver personalized ads based on its customers' browsing history. Comcast, the nation's largest home Internet provider, said it will continue to offer customers a way to opt out of targeted ads. I don't know about you, but I would be shocked if they did this solely based on IP and did not find DNS information to be important for this task. [1] https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2017/03/comcast-we-wont-sell-browser-history-and-you-can-opt-out-of-targeted-ads/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2017/03/comcast-we-wont-...