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> but a little bit of knowledge about the American election system makes it clear that voter fraud is really not a big problem. There are ~ 11 million illegal

> but a little bit of knowledge about the American election system makes it clear that voter fraud is really not a big problem. There are ~ 11 million illegal immigrants in the USA according to some government studies. How does the process measure whether or not they voted, in order to come to the above conclusion? Can't the same process be used to authenticate the citizenship of whoever comes to the voting booth? Also I have just learned that voters' fingers are not inked when they vote. How is double voting prevented?

yardie 8y ago
Hardly anyone does it because the reward is small and the penalty is huge. Voter fraud is a federal crime. That's 2+ years in a federal pen (the ones they make scary movies about) with a minimum 85% sentence served. There is no early, good behavior release. Imagine knowingly robbing a bank where the maximum haul is $1. That is kind sort of what knowingly. Authentication happens at registration. Once your registered they have your name on a checklist at the polling location which they check off. It also prevents double voting. Now, how do they verify all these votes are actually correct? Well polling data is really damn accurate. Each party kind of knows in advance where they will win so it comes down to running a statistical models to find anomalies. In short, to commit real voting fraud it would have to be a coordinated system wide event. Not something that can be done by individual voters. But now with electronic voting it takes very little to run a SQL update query and change a million votes.
- fareesh 8y ago
  > Once your registered they have your name on a checklist at the polling location which they check off From what I understand its common for many in the US population to move residences frequently so it's quite likely that people are registered to vote in multiple states. Wouldn't it be possible for someone to simply vote as you in the other state(s) where you are registered? I suspect there are a considerable number of people registered in more than one state. It seems like political parties can theoretically conduct coordinated voter fraud of this nature without triggering any kind of alarm through methods like this.
  - Hello71 8y ago
    As long as literally nobody moves back to where they started, otherwise everybody involved gets locked up for the aforementioned years and years.
    - fareesh 8y ago
      Don't you have a similar deterrent for being an illegal immigrant in the first place?
      - pas 8y ago
        I think that used to simply get you a deportation. Now of course Trump et al. is incarcerating illegal border crossers. See also: For the first improper entry offense, the person can be fined (as a criminal or civil penalty), or imprisoned for up to six months, or both. This is considered a misdemeanor under federal law (18 U.S.C.A. § 3559). For a subsequent offense, or a reentry (or attempted reentry) after exclusion or deportation, the person can be fined or imprisoned for up to two years, or both. (See 8 U.S.C. Section 1325, 1326, I.N.A. Section 275, 276.) This is considered a low-level felony under federal law (18 U.S.C.A. § 3559).
      - pseudalopex 8y ago
        People mostly emigrate for work or family, so the risk comes with a much greater benefit than the very small chance of deciding an election.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
- pas 8y ago
  How does authentication happen at registration time? Can people use a passport? Do they need something that has their address on it? What about homeless people? I saw a post recently on Reddit claiming that a taxi (or uber or lyft or whatever) driver's car became a registration station. That doesn't seem to be too "secure".
  - yardie 8y ago
    I’m not sure what the current procedure is as I registered 15 years ago at the polling station. I brought my driver license and a few bills with my address. Since then I update my address regular. I also moved abroad and have to absentee ballot as well. The homeless can register and use the shelter address as their address. Most don’t and aren’t told they have that right.
- sheepmullet 8y ago
  > Hardly anyone does it I suspect there is a lot of it but it’s probably not coordinated enough to swing an election. > because the reward is small and the penalty is huge. I’d argue the reward is major and the chance of getting caught and prosecuted is almost nil. For example voting illegally for dems could get amnesty on the table. And the threat of penalty? Well my local liquor store got robbed for about $600 cash last month. The guy who did it is multiple orders of magnitude more likely to get caught than an illegal voter. Yet the jail time didn’t stop him.
mdorazio 8y ago
At least here in California, every voter is assigned a location where they vote. The voting location has a list of everyone assigned there and checks your name (and address) off their list when you show up. If you're not on the list or if your name is already checked off you can't vote.
- pas 8y ago
  Do you have to prove your name and address somehow? Or you have to simply say it and they see if it's on the list?
  - mdorazio 8y ago
    Good question. I've always given them my ID to verify, but I'm not sure if that's actually required. I assume that it's not required and if they mark your name off the list, then someone else gives the same name/address they know there's a fraud situation and then there's some kind of followup.

yardie 8y ago

Hardly anyone does it because the reward is small and the penalty is huge. Voter fraud is a federal crime. That's 2+ years in a federal pen (the ones they make scary movies about) with a minimum 85% sentence served. There is no early, good behavior release. Imagine knowingly robbing a bank where the maximum haul is $1. That is kind sort of what knowingly. Authentication happens at registration. Once your registered they have your name on a checklist at the polling location which they check off. It also prevents double voting. Now, how do they verify all these votes are actually correct? Well polling data is really damn accurate. Each party kind of knows in advance where they will win so it comes down to running a statistical models to find anomalies. In short, to commit real voting fraud it would have to be a coordinated system wide event. Not something that can be done by individual voters. But now with electronic voting it takes very little to run a SQL update query and change a million votes.

fareesh 8y ago
> Once your registered they have your name on a checklist at the polling location which they check off From what I understand its common for many in the US population to move residences frequently so it's quite likely that people are registered to vote in multiple states. Wouldn't it be possible for someone to simply vote as you in the other state(s) where you are registered? I suspect there are a considerable number of people registered in more than one state. It seems like political parties can theoretically conduct coordinated voter fraud of this nature without triggering any kind of alarm through methods like this.
- Hello71 8y ago
  As long as literally nobody moves back to where they started, otherwise everybody involved gets locked up for the aforementioned years and years.
  - fareesh 8y ago
    Don't you have a similar deterrent for being an illegal immigrant in the first place?
    - pas 8y ago
      I think that used to simply get you a deportation. Now of course Trump et al. is incarcerating illegal border crossers. See also: For the first improper entry offense, the person can be fined (as a criminal or civil penalty), or imprisoned for up to six months, or both. This is considered a misdemeanor under federal law (18 U.S.C.A. § 3559). For a subsequent offense, or a reentry (or attempted reentry) after exclusion or deportation, the person can be fined or imprisoned for up to two years, or both. (See 8 U.S.C. Section 1325, 1326, I.N.A. Section 275, 276.) This is considered a low-level felony under federal law (18 U.S.C.A. § 3559).
    - pseudalopex 8y ago
      People mostly emigrate for work or family, so the risk comes with a much greater benefit than the very small chance of deciding an election.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
pas 8y ago
How does authentication happen at registration time? Can people use a passport? Do they need something that has their address on it? What about homeless people? I saw a post recently on Reddit claiming that a taxi (or uber or lyft or whatever) driver's car became a registration station. That doesn't seem to be too "secure".
- yardie 8y ago
  I’m not sure what the current procedure is as I registered 15 years ago at the polling station. I brought my driver license and a few bills with my address. Since then I update my address regular. I also moved abroad and have to absentee ballot as well. The homeless can register and use the shelter address as their address. Most don’t and aren’t told they have that right.
sheepmullet 8y ago
> Hardly anyone does it I suspect there is a lot of it but it’s probably not coordinated enough to swing an election. > because the reward is small and the penalty is huge. I’d argue the reward is major and the chance of getting caught and prosecuted is almost nil. For example voting illegally for dems could get amnesty on the table. And the threat of penalty? Well my local liquor store got robbed for about $600 cash last month. The guy who did it is multiple orders of magnitude more likely to get caught than an illegal voter. Yet the jail time didn’t stop him.

mdorazio 8y ago

At least here in California, every voter is assigned a location where they vote. The voting location has a list of everyone assigned there and checks your name (and address) off their list when you show up. If you're not on the list or if your name is already checked off you can't vote.

pas 8y ago
Do you have to prove your name and address somehow? Or you have to simply say it and they see if it's on the list?
- mdorazio 8y ago
  Good question. I've always given them my ID to verify, but I'm not sure if that's actually required. I assume that it's not required and if they mark your name off the list, then someone else gives the same name/address they know there's a fraud situation and then there's some kind of followup.