4 ms·

Surprised nobody's mentioned this yet: The most common form of ID in the US is a driver's license. To get one you need to meet a bunch of requirements and then

Surprised nobody's mentioned this yet: The most common form of ID in the US is a driver's license. To get one you need to meet a bunch of requirements and then take a driving test at a local branch of the Department of Motor Vehicles (DMV). If you are ever looking for a great example of government inefficiency it's the DMV offices [1]. All of them run horribly, most have massive wait times for simple procedures, and the employees have a reputation for not giving a shit. Not to say all of them run like this, but in California it's so bad that the government officials have their own secret DMV office to avoid waits [2]. If you were a poor person who really only has the value of their physical labor to feed your family you might not want to waste spend hours and hours of your incredibly (relatively) valuable time for something you can make do without. Since these poor people are often minorities voter ID laws disproportionately affect them. The question of racism being a factor for supporters of voter ID is kinda muddied. Voter ID laws seem to make a ton of sense on the surface, but a little bit of knowledge about the American election system makes it clear that voter fraud is really not a big problem. There's no doubt that racists would support voter ID laws as they do suppress the election turnout of the poor, but I haven't seen any evidence that racial factors contribute to the majority of people's support for voter ID laws. Like every topic in US politics, it has become hyper-polarized to the point where both sides talk past each other to try to demonize their opponents. [1]: https://www.quora.com/Why-is-DMV-so-slow https://www.quora.com/Why-is-DMV-so-slow [2]: https://www.sacbee.com/news/politics-government/capitol-alert/article216408570.html https://www.sacbee.com/news/politics-government/capitol-aler...

Redoubts 8y ago
> The most common form of ID in the US is a driver's license. It's the most common, but not the only one. You can just show up and ask for a plain ID, and avoid all that. And I kinda have to wonder how people get their I-9 filled out without any form of ID. You generally need an ID just to work in this country.
- TomMckenny 8y ago
  There are states where you have to show a utility bill to get one of these.
  - debacle 8y ago
    You just need to show proof of residence, of which a utility bill is one example.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
    - CPLX 8y ago
      Which means you have to be in a stable living situation.
      - pas 8y ago
        What kind of ID homeless people can get then? Can they vote? Register to vote?
  - Covzire 8y ago
    I've never seen a requirement that specifically listed "must have utility bill". There are usually a list of valid documents, and in someone's worst case, if they're disabled, they're going to be collecting disability and will have official correspondence from the state with their name and address on it that would qualify.
- h4b4n3r0 8y ago
  ID is also required to receive welfare or exercise the 2nd amendment or 1st amendment right to peaceful assembly (many municipalities require a permit for that, which will not be issued to a person without an ID). It's interesting that requiring an ID to vote is "disenfranchisement" yet thousands of other things where ID is required (including the exercise of some constitutional rights) are not "disenfranchisement".
  - spacehome 8y ago
    It's controversial because people without ID overwhelmingly vote for one party. If having an ID were uncorrelated with party affiliation, we wouldn't be having this stupid conversation.
  - ravenstine 8y ago
    There's nothing that you said that isn't factual. What's funny is any argument against voter ID should be blown out of the water by just making IDs totally free (yes, I know, paid by taxpayers). But I've had this discussion with people before, including people who actually believe that it's racist to have any form of ID to be required anywhere. Yes, these people do exist. The conversation always goes down the road of "well what about the mountain people who live 200 miles from the DMV, don't work, don't have an address, don't have a car, and can't take a bus?" It's the most immature form of "debate" to hunt and peck for extreme edge cases and pretend that they are silver bullets. Aha! It doesn't work for the minority who won't hop on a bike and become a part of civilization, therefore those who are pro voter ID hate the poor. Yeeeup. Personally, I don't really care about this issue as I think voting is a waste of time and I don't do it anymore. But it's hilarious just how far extremists will take the argument.
dredmorbius 8y ago
Not all DMVs are inefficient, and some move quite smoothly. A huge hurdle has been the more stringent ID requirements for drivers licences, mostly imposed by airlines which rely on these now as security documents. For the economically marginalised, it's all too easy to become uncredentialed, and then difficult or impossible to re-establish identity. This affects not just voting (if there is an ID requirement), but virtually all aspects of life: housing, employment, medical coverage, banking, and of course, mobility.
- ravenstine 8y ago
  I don't have experiences with DMVs outside of California, but Californians love to complain about DMVs just like other things they chose to expose themselves to like traffic, heat, and relatively mild winters. My experiences with the DMV have always been pretty smooth, and I've been to multiple offices. Yes, there's often a line, but people will stand in line just as long or longer for a 3 minute ride at Disneyland. Waiting at the DMV isn't fun, but you rarely ever have to go. Still, the line can be avoided almost entirely just by showing up early. Most people are lazy and show up hours after opening without an appointment. If you can't get an appointment(which already solves a ton of problems) show up 45 minutes before opening, be one of the first in line, eat a snack, hand over the papers you already filled out at home, and you're done. Yes, it's really hard to get up at 6am when you normally get up at 8. Life really, really sucks. Let's say that other DMVs are worse, which I imagine they are. People don't have to renew their IDs for years. Waiting at the DMV once in a great while is a very, very small penalty. People just complain too much, in my opinion.
  - sheepmullet 8y ago
    > Waiting at the DMV once in a great while is a very, very small penalty. > People just complain too much, in my opinion. Spot on. I’ve had to wait in line for hours in India - and even the poorest in India can do it without major complaint. I mean yes you try and avoid it... but if it’s a 5 hour wait once every 10 years you just suck it up. In reality the Democrats know there are a bunch of people who don’t care about politics and know nothing about the candidates or policies but can be cajoled into voting for team blue.
fareesh 8y ago
> but a little bit of knowledge about the American election system makes it clear that voter fraud is really not a big problem. There are ~ 11 million illegal immigrants in the USA according to some government studies. How does the process measure whether or not they voted, in order to come to the above conclusion? Can't the same process be used to authenticate the citizenship of whoever comes to the voting booth? Also I have just learned that voters' fingers are not inked when they vote. How is double voting prevented?
- yardie 8y ago
  Hardly anyone does it because the reward is small and the penalty is huge. Voter fraud is a federal crime. That's 2+ years in a federal pen (the ones they make scary movies about) with a minimum 85% sentence served. There is no early, good behavior release. Imagine knowingly robbing a bank where the maximum haul is $1. That is kind sort of what knowingly. Authentication happens at registration. Once your registered they have your name on a checklist at the polling location which they check off. It also prevents double voting. Now, how do they verify all these votes are actually correct? Well polling data is really damn accurate. Each party kind of knows in advance where they will win so it comes down to running a statistical models to find anomalies. In short, to commit real voting fraud it would have to be a coordinated system wide event. Not something that can be done by individual voters. But now with electronic voting it takes very little to run a SQL update query and change a million votes.
  - fareesh 8y ago
    > Once your registered they have your name on a checklist at the polling location which they check off From what I understand its common for many in the US population to move residences frequently so it's quite likely that people are registered to vote in multiple states. Wouldn't it be possible for someone to simply vote as you in the other state(s) where you are registered? I suspect there are a considerable number of people registered in more than one state. It seems like political parties can theoretically conduct coordinated voter fraud of this nature without triggering any kind of alarm through methods like this.
mc32 8y ago
You can pay $15 to get a non driver state issued ID. As a student I had to get one of those before I got a drivers license.
madengr 8y ago
Funny when you go to the DMV, everybody in line is speaking Spanish. But when you go to the polling place, those speaking Spanish don’t seem to have an ID.
walshemj 8y ago
Why does not the body that keeps the electoral role just mail out poling cards as is done in the UK.
madeofpalk 8y ago
Do you need to show ID if you're young to buy alcohol? What do the people who don't drive use? In Australia, I don't drive and so don't have a drivers license, so I get a 'Photo Card' instead. I was actually able to trade in my expired learners drivers license for free to get a Photo Card (well, I could have if I didn't have an outstanding fine from... not voting)

Redoubts 8y ago

> The most common form of ID in the US is a driver's license. It's the most common, but not the only one. You can just show up and ask for a plain ID, and avoid all that. And I kinda have to wonder how people get their I-9 filled out without any form of ID. You generally need an ID just to work in this country.

TomMckenny 8y ago
There are states where you have to show a utility bill to get one of these.
- debacle 8y ago
  You just need to show proof of residence, of which a utility bill is one example.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - CPLX 8y ago
    Which means you have to be in a stable living situation.
    - pas 8y ago
      What kind of ID homeless people can get then? Can they vote? Register to vote?
- Covzire 8y ago
  I've never seen a requirement that specifically listed "must have utility bill". There are usually a list of valid documents, and in someone's worst case, if they're disabled, they're going to be collecting disability and will have official correspondence from the state with their name and address on it that would qualify.
h4b4n3r0 8y ago
ID is also required to receive welfare or exercise the 2nd amendment or 1st amendment right to peaceful assembly (many municipalities require a permit for that, which will not be issued to a person without an ID). It's interesting that requiring an ID to vote is "disenfranchisement" yet thousands of other things where ID is required (including the exercise of some constitutional rights) are not "disenfranchisement".
- spacehome 8y ago
  It's controversial because people without ID overwhelmingly vote for one party. If having an ID were uncorrelated with party affiliation, we wouldn't be having this stupid conversation.
- ravenstine 8y ago
  There's nothing that you said that isn't factual. What's funny is any argument against voter ID should be blown out of the water by just making IDs totally free (yes, I know, paid by taxpayers). But I've had this discussion with people before, including people who actually believe that it's racist to have any form of ID to be required anywhere. Yes, these people do exist. The conversation always goes down the road of "well what about the mountain people who live 200 miles from the DMV, don't work, don't have an address, don't have a car, and can't take a bus?" It's the most immature form of "debate" to hunt and peck for extreme edge cases and pretend that they are silver bullets. Aha! It doesn't work for the minority who won't hop on a bike and become a part of civilization, therefore those who are pro voter ID hate the poor. Yeeeup. Personally, I don't really care about this issue as I think voting is a waste of time and I don't do it anymore. But it's hilarious just how far extremists will take the argument.

dredmorbius 8y ago

Not all DMVs are inefficient, and some move quite smoothly. A huge hurdle has been the more stringent ID requirements for drivers licences, mostly imposed by airlines which rely on these now as security documents. For the economically marginalised, it's all too easy to become uncredentialed, and then difficult or impossible to re-establish identity. This affects not just voting (if there is an ID requirement), but virtually all aspects of life: housing, employment, medical coverage, banking, and of course, mobility.

ravenstine 8y ago
I don't have experiences with DMVs outside of California, but Californians love to complain about DMVs just like other things they chose to expose themselves to like traffic, heat, and relatively mild winters. My experiences with the DMV have always been pretty smooth, and I've been to multiple offices. Yes, there's often a line, but people will stand in line just as long or longer for a 3 minute ride at Disneyland. Waiting at the DMV isn't fun, but you rarely ever have to go. Still, the line can be avoided almost entirely just by showing up early. Most people are lazy and show up hours after opening without an appointment. If you can't get an appointment(which already solves a ton of problems) show up 45 minutes before opening, be one of the first in line, eat a snack, hand over the papers you already filled out at home, and you're done. Yes, it's really hard to get up at 6am when you normally get up at 8. Life really, really sucks. Let's say that other DMVs are worse, which I imagine they are. People don't have to renew their IDs for years. Waiting at the DMV once in a great while is a very, very small penalty. People just complain too much, in my opinion.
- sheepmullet 8y ago
  > Waiting at the DMV once in a great while is a very, very small penalty. > People just complain too much, in my opinion. Spot on. I’ve had to wait in line for hours in India - and even the poorest in India can do it without major complaint. I mean yes you try and avoid it... but if it’s a 5 hour wait once every 10 years you just suck it up. In reality the Democrats know there are a bunch of people who don’t care about politics and know nothing about the candidates or policies but can be cajoled into voting for team blue.

fareesh 8y ago

> but a little bit of knowledge about the American election system makes it clear that voter fraud is really not a big problem. There are ~ 11 million illegal immigrants in the USA according to some government studies. How does the process measure whether or not they voted, in order to come to the above conclusion? Can't the same process be used to authenticate the citizenship of whoever comes to the voting booth? Also I have just learned that voters' fingers are not inked when they vote. How is double voting prevented?

yardie 8y ago
Hardly anyone does it because the reward is small and the penalty is huge. Voter fraud is a federal crime. That's 2+ years in a federal pen (the ones they make scary movies about) with a minimum 85% sentence served. There is no early, good behavior release. Imagine knowingly robbing a bank where the maximum haul is $1. That is kind sort of what knowingly. Authentication happens at registration. Once your registered they have your name on a checklist at the polling location which they check off. It also prevents double voting. Now, how do they verify all these votes are actually correct? Well polling data is really damn accurate. Each party kind of knows in advance where they will win so it comes down to running a statistical models to find anomalies. In short, to commit real voting fraud it would have to be a coordinated system wide event. Not something that can be done by individual voters. But now with electronic voting it takes very little to run a SQL update query and change a million votes.
- fareesh 8y ago
  > Once your registered they have your name on a checklist at the polling location which they check off From what I understand its common for many in the US population to move residences frequently so it's quite likely that people are registered to vote in multiple states. Wouldn't it be possible for someone to simply vote as you in the other state(s) where you are registered? I suspect there are a considerable number of people registered in more than one state. It seems like political parties can theoretically conduct coordinated voter fraud of this nature without triggering any kind of alarm through methods like this.

mc32 8y ago

You can pay $15 to get a non driver state issued ID. As a student I had to get one of those before I got a drivers license.

madengr 8y ago

Funny when you go to the DMV, everybody in line is speaking Spanish. But when you go to the polling place, those speaking Spanish don’t seem to have an ID.

walshemj 8y ago

Why does not the body that keeps the electoral role just mail out poling cards as is done in the UK.

madeofpalk 8y ago

Do you need to show ID if you're young to buy alcohol? What do the people who don't drive use? In Australia, I don't drive and so don't have a drivers license, so I get a 'Photo Card' instead. I was actually able to trade in my expired learners drivers license for free to get a Photo Card (well, I could have if I didn't have an outstanding fine from... not voting)