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I have friend who has 40 years programming experience, he is building a computer controlled milling machine in his basement. When I asked him about the limit s

I have friend who has 40 years programming experience, he is building a computer controlled milling machine in his basement. When I asked him about the limit switches it turns out they are read by software only and the software will turn off power to the motor controllers if a limit switch is activated. I asked why he does not wire the switches to cut power directly to be on the safe side. His answer "It's to much bother to add the extra circuits." We are talking less than $20 in parts and a day of his time. If the software fails after sending the controller a message to start moving the head at a certain speed then crashes there is nothing to stop the machine wreaking itself. E.C.P.

Gracana 8y ago
Probably not that big a deal. An operator/program can easily damage a CNC mill by jogging a substantial tool (or the spindle itself) into solid material, which is a much more likely scenario.
userbinator 8y ago
...but it's not "much bother" to run the control loop through the complexity of software? This seems to be the equivalent of overengineering in software, where something straightforward is instead performed through many layers of abstraction and indirection. The straightforward way of implementing this with a bidirectional motor is to wire normally-closed limit switches in series with their appropriate direction signals, such that when the switch is actuated it prevents the motor from going in that direction, but it can still move away from the switch.
- phkahler 8y ago
  Try that with stepper motors used in 3d printers. Try it with an off the shelf driver. Make it so the limit switch only stops motion in one direction.
therein 8y ago
In a situation like that, I wouldn't blame him. Consider while building his milling machine how many of these situations he will come across. If he had to make sure there was a hardware failswitch, it would simply not scale. 3D printers are like this too. They have mechanical limit switches [0] that are read only by software. So if there is a bug in the software, nothing is stopping it from pushing the hardware limits and breaking. Same goes the other way around, if this switch is broken, same might happen. [0] https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/EYAAAOSwbopZguz4/s-l300.jpg https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/EYAAAOSwbopZguz4/s-l300.jpg
- Matumio 8y ago
  Most 3D printers don't have massive printing heads. If they drive into the end-stops, the motors will likely just skip steps and be stuck. They are not designed to apply much force. I'm much more worried about the heating element. Its temperature is usually controlled by the same cpu that also does motion control and g-code parsing. If anything locks up the CPU the heat might not be turned off in time, and (because you also want fast startup) there is enough power available to melt something. At the very least you would get nasty fumes from over-heated plastics, and maybe even teflon tape, which often is part of the print head. At worst it could start a fire.
  - ioquatix 8y ago
    As a 3D printing enthusiast, I can confirm your fears. It's all in software and while there are good control systems, nothings perfect. I had the hotbed fail and it was smoking when I found it.
- Doxin 8y ago
  Note that (depending on how the 3d printer is wired) a defective switch will result in an "endstop hit" condition. A dislodged switch however will happily keep reporting it's not being hit.
sverige 8y ago
So that's where the youtube videos of CNC milling machine failures come from! TFA noted that major causes of the disaster was the culture and failure to independently unit test the machine.
voxadam 8y ago
While it's not terribly uncommon for small hobby machines to depend on software limits I can't think of a single instance in my years of maintaining "real" production CNC machines of encountering a machine that didn't also include hard limits. Limit switches typically include two trip points. The first is monitored by the control system; when it is tripped the control halts execution and stops the machine. The second limit is wired directly to the servo amplifier so that, if for what ever reason, the control fails to halt the machine when the soft limit is tripped power is removed and motion is halted. Both limits are fail-safe such that if they were to become disconnected it would result in a limit exceeded condition.
kw71 8y ago
This seems like a good time to mention that God gave us hardware interrupt inputs and watchdog timers.

Gracana 8y ago

Probably not that big a deal. An operator/program can easily damage a CNC mill by jogging a substantial tool (or the spindle itself) into solid material, which is a much more likely scenario.

userbinator 8y ago

...but it's not "much bother" to run the control loop through the complexity of software? This seems to be the equivalent of overengineering in software, where something straightforward is instead performed through many layers of abstraction and indirection. The straightforward way of implementing this with a bidirectional motor is to wire normally-closed limit switches in series with their appropriate direction signals, such that when the switch is actuated it prevents the motor from going in that direction, but it can still move away from the switch.

phkahler 8y ago
Try that with stepper motors used in 3d printers. Try it with an off the shelf driver. Make it so the limit switch only stops motion in one direction.

therein 8y ago

In a situation like that, I wouldn't blame him. Consider while building his milling machine how many of these situations he will come across. If he had to make sure there was a hardware failswitch, it would simply not scale. 3D printers are like this too. They have mechanical limit switches [0] that are read only by software. So if there is a bug in the software, nothing is stopping it from pushing the hardware limits and breaking. Same goes the other way around, if this switch is broken, same might happen. [0] https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/EYAAAOSwbopZguz4/s-l300.jpg https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/EYAAAOSwbopZguz4/s-l300.jpg

Matumio 8y ago
Most 3D printers don't have massive printing heads. If they drive into the end-stops, the motors will likely just skip steps and be stuck. They are not designed to apply much force. I'm much more worried about the heating element. Its temperature is usually controlled by the same cpu that also does motion control and g-code parsing. If anything locks up the CPU the heat might not be turned off in time, and (because you also want fast startup) there is enough power available to melt something. At the very least you would get nasty fumes from over-heated plastics, and maybe even teflon tape, which often is part of the print head. At worst it could start a fire.
- ioquatix 8y ago
  As a 3D printing enthusiast, I can confirm your fears. It's all in software and while there are good control systems, nothings perfect. I had the hotbed fail and it was smoking when I found it.
Doxin 8y ago
Note that (depending on how the 3d printer is wired) a defective switch will result in an "endstop hit" condition. A dislodged switch however will happily keep reporting it's not being hit.

sverige 8y ago

So that's where the youtube videos of CNC milling machine failures come from! TFA noted that major causes of the disaster was the culture and failure to independently unit test the machine.

voxadam 8y ago

While it's not terribly uncommon for small hobby machines to depend on software limits I can't think of a single instance in my years of maintaining "real" production CNC machines of encountering a machine that didn't also include hard limits. Limit switches typically include two trip points. The first is monitored by the control system; when it is tripped the control halts execution and stops the machine. The second limit is wired directly to the servo amplifier so that, if for what ever reason, the control fails to halt the machine when the soft limit is tripped power is removed and motion is halted. Both limits are fail-safe such that if they were to become disconnected it would result in a limit exceeded condition.

kw71 8y ago

This seems like a good time to mention that God gave us hardware interrupt inputs and watchdog timers.