4 ms·

Vorys is corrupt. I've received threatening letters from them as well, that came to my physical address despite it not being listed anywhere on my Amazon store.

by ikeboy 8y ago

Vorys is corrupt. I've received threatening letters from them as well, that came to my physical address despite it not being listed anywhere on my Amazon store. It also contained false assertions (I'd bought the goods in question from an authorized distributor that confirmed to me that the letter was simply lying). I know multiple other sellers that also had this issue. It is my belief that Vorys is illegally paying Amazon insiders to get contact information for sellers, as there is no legitimate path to get that information that does not involve a subpoena to Amazon, which would involve an active lawsuit. Unfortunately, this is hard to prove.

ikeboy 8y ago
In general, companies can be extremely abusive if they don't want their stuff being sold online. I know multiple people who have bought directly from companies, and later had the company claim to Amazon that they were infringing IP. The listing goes down, sometimes the entire account as well, till you send in invoices and convince Amazon to accept them and reinstate the listing, which takes time.
- close04 8y ago
  I wonder if this is more of a Bethesda initiative or a law firm initiative. Is Bethesda aware that bad PR these days can cripple your launches? Are they really risking an increase in "revenge piracy" or loss of sales just for a marginal reduction in "losses" from these Amazon sellers? People who buy used games don't want to pay the new price, and they won't. One way or another they'll get it for the discounted price. It's best if you don't alienate your customers for something that will bring no palpable benefit.
  - ikeboy 8y ago
    It's the law firm. They go out and pitch brands on using this to control distribution. See https://markettrack.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/Vorys-and-Market-Track-Unauthorized-Reseller-Webinar-Slides-81116.pdf https://markettrack.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/Vorys-and..., which pitches brands on creating bogus "warranties" so they then have a flimsy legal basis to threaten sellers with. Most sellers, even businesses, will fold out of fear and want to avoid a lawsuit, so these claims aren't often tested in court. Also, to be fair, this case was someone selling as new. The game was sealed, but it does cut down on their own sales. I know people who'll go to e.g. bestbuy, buy games using launch discounts or clearance, etc, then sell on Amazon. Perfectly legitimate business model in my view.
  - phobosdeimos 8y ago
    "People who buy used games don't want to pay the new price, and they won't" They will once physical disks are abolished for digital stores. They have been pushing this for years and PC gaming is already there. No more used games.
    - close04 8y ago
      I wonder if people will just create a different account for every game and just sell the account :D. And I don't see PC games being any different than console ones. Most games still have physical copies that can be resold, or am I missing what you meant? Physical copies still have plenty of life in them with games ballooning to triple digit GBs and most of the world being stuck on slow internet.
      - Macha 8y ago
        Many PC physical games have been Steam keys in a box for a long time. Sometimes they come with a disk with the Steam installer for the release version but it has DRM to prevent running it without activation on a specific account, so it only really saves on download time for a couple of months until patches are as large as just downloading the game anew. In recent years, there's a been few more cases of Origin/uplay/etc. keys in the box instead, but the same limitation applies.
    - hakfoo 8y ago
      I think they're acting on that message, in a different way, though. The retail model was always space constrained. They have to take Oblivion off the shelves eventually to make room for Skyrim. That created a window where you had to buy now or you have no choice but used. Digital shops have no such limit, so they can just keep all product on a gradual downward pricing spiral. And the buyers can just wait forever until their personal threshold is reached. Now, the interesting side of it is what effect resale has on people's price thresholds: do buyers price the trade-in value of the game into their purchase decisions? I could see someone saying "I'm willing to buy the $60 PlayStation disc I can trade back for $20 when done, but the corresponding PC version (with no resale option) has to be $40 to provide the same value for money" Maybe not consciously, though.
- jjeaff 8y ago
  Even with legitimate invoices it is hit or miss and extremely difficult if not impossible to get reinstated. You can provide exactly what they are asking for, and the Amazon drone employees on the other end will simply deny you with no explanation and then resend you the same form email asking for the exact same thing. In fact, sometimes sending valid invoices will get denied and then sending the exact same invoices again, it will sometimes be accepted. Companies will also have employees go in and buy the products and then complain that they are counterfeit. And Amazon believes them 100% by default.
  - ikeboy 8y ago
    Yes, agreed, seen that multiple times. I have one case where the company refiled the same claim dozens of times, I kept providing the exact same invoice each time, but only got accepted maybe half the time or so. In general, the "cleaner" the invoice is, the higher the odds of being accepted. Although they recently tightened requirements, see https://www.webretailer.com/lean-commerce/amazon-invoice-verification/ https://www.webretailer.com/lean-commerce/amazon-invoice-ver... (in particular, notice the insistence that suppliers have a website). I find it interesting that whenever the topic comes up on HN, everyone complains about Amazon being too easy to sell counterfeits on, while whenever I talk to sellers that sell legitimate product, they're getting hit with these issues and think the exact opposite.
    - jjeaff 8y ago
      I even had cases where a valid invoice did not work. But creating a fake invoice did the trick.
DoctorNick 8y ago
Couldn't they have just bought something from you and gotten your return address that way?
- ikeboy 8y ago
  No, all shipped through FBA.
Regardsyjc 8y ago
Is it possible that they reverse engineered your business information by whatever information you have available on your storefront? Phone number, business name if you also have other marketplaces like ebay, or your own website, etc. It's pretty easy to figure stuff out once they have a business entity. On the other hand, maybe Vorys was able to get the information by threatening Amazon with a lawsuit?
- ikeboy 8y ago
  No. Storefront is not connected to business name at all. And I'm not the only one this happened to. It also had parts of my name that isn't connected to my business in public records, but which were provided to Amazon. I don't know for sure, just a strong suspicion. It's possible but very unlikely that Amazon would provide that info through official channels without even a complaint being filed through Amazon. I know others who've sued to get counterfeiters off their private label products and it's hard to get info out of Amazon even in a lawsuit, let alone without one.

by ikeboy 8y ago

ikeboy 8y ago

In general, companies can be extremely abusive if they don't want their stuff being sold online. I know multiple people who have bought directly from companies, and later had the company claim to Amazon that they were infringing IP. The listing goes down, sometimes the entire account as well, till you send in invoices and convince Amazon to accept them and reinstate the listing, which takes time.

close04 8y ago
I wonder if this is more of a Bethesda initiative or a law firm initiative. Is Bethesda aware that bad PR these days can cripple your launches? Are they really risking an increase in "revenge piracy" or loss of sales just for a marginal reduction in "losses" from these Amazon sellers? People who buy used games don't want to pay the new price, and they won't. One way or another they'll get it for the discounted price. It's best if you don't alienate your customers for something that will bring no palpable benefit.
- ikeboy 8y ago
  It's the law firm. They go out and pitch brands on using this to control distribution. See https://markettrack.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/Vorys-and-Market-Track-Unauthorized-Reseller-Webinar-Slides-81116.pdf https://markettrack.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/Vorys-and..., which pitches brands on creating bogus "warranties" so they then have a flimsy legal basis to threaten sellers with. Most sellers, even businesses, will fold out of fear and want to avoid a lawsuit, so these claims aren't often tested in court. Also, to be fair, this case was someone selling as new. The game was sealed, but it does cut down on their own sales. I know people who'll go to e.g. bestbuy, buy games using launch discounts or clearance, etc, then sell on Amazon. Perfectly legitimate business model in my view.
- phobosdeimos 8y ago
  "People who buy used games don't want to pay the new price, and they won't" They will once physical disks are abolished for digital stores. They have been pushing this for years and PC gaming is already there. No more used games.
  - close04 8y ago
    I wonder if people will just create a different account for every game and just sell the account :D. And I don't see PC games being any different than console ones. Most games still have physical copies that can be resold, or am I missing what you meant? Physical copies still have plenty of life in them with games ballooning to triple digit GBs and most of the world being stuck on slow internet.
    - Macha 8y ago
      Many PC physical games have been Steam keys in a box for a long time. Sometimes they come with a disk with the Steam installer for the release version but it has DRM to prevent running it without activation on a specific account, so it only really saves on download time for a couple of months until patches are as large as just downloading the game anew. In recent years, there's a been few more cases of Origin/uplay/etc. keys in the box instead, but the same limitation applies.
  - hakfoo 8y ago
    I think they're acting on that message, in a different way, though. The retail model was always space constrained. They have to take Oblivion off the shelves eventually to make room for Skyrim. That created a window where you had to buy now or you have no choice but used. Digital shops have no such limit, so they can just keep all product on a gradual downward pricing spiral. And the buyers can just wait forever until their personal threshold is reached. Now, the interesting side of it is what effect resale has on people's price thresholds: do buyers price the trade-in value of the game into their purchase decisions? I could see someone saying "I'm willing to buy the $60 PlayStation disc I can trade back for $20 when done, but the corresponding PC version (with no resale option) has to be $40 to provide the same value for money" Maybe not consciously, though.
jjeaff 8y ago
Even with legitimate invoices it is hit or miss and extremely difficult if not impossible to get reinstated. You can provide exactly what they are asking for, and the Amazon drone employees on the other end will simply deny you with no explanation and then resend you the same form email asking for the exact same thing. In fact, sometimes sending valid invoices will get denied and then sending the exact same invoices again, it will sometimes be accepted. Companies will also have employees go in and buy the products and then complain that they are counterfeit. And Amazon believes them 100% by default.
- ikeboy 8y ago
  Yes, agreed, seen that multiple times. I have one case where the company refiled the same claim dozens of times, I kept providing the exact same invoice each time, but only got accepted maybe half the time or so. In general, the "cleaner" the invoice is, the higher the odds of being accepted. Although they recently tightened requirements, see https://www.webretailer.com/lean-commerce/amazon-invoice-verification/ https://www.webretailer.com/lean-commerce/amazon-invoice-ver... (in particular, notice the insistence that suppliers have a website). I find it interesting that whenever the topic comes up on HN, everyone complains about Amazon being too easy to sell counterfeits on, while whenever I talk to sellers that sell legitimate product, they're getting hit with these issues and think the exact opposite.
  - jjeaff 8y ago
    I even had cases where a valid invoice did not work. But creating a fake invoice did the trick.

DoctorNick 8y ago

Couldn't they have just bought something from you and gotten your return address that way?

ikeboy 8y ago
No, all shipped through FBA.

Regardsyjc 8y ago

Is it possible that they reverse engineered your business information by whatever information you have available on your storefront? Phone number, business name if you also have other marketplaces like ebay, or your own website, etc. It's pretty easy to figure stuff out once they have a business entity. On the other hand, maybe Vorys was able to get the information by threatening Amazon with a lawsuit?

ikeboy 8y ago
No. Storefront is not connected to business name at all. And I'm not the only one this happened to. It also had parts of my name that isn't connected to my business in public records, but which were provided to Amazon. I don't know for sure, just a strong suspicion. It's possible but very unlikely that Amazon would provide that info through official channels without even a complaint being filed through Amazon. I know others who've sued to get counterfeiters off their private label products and it's hard to get info out of Amazon even in a lawsuit, let alone without one.