10 ms·

Bayesian analysis suggests that John Lennon wrote the music for 'In My Life'

148 points by henrik_w 8y ago

nanis 8y ago
Edit, FYI: When I posted this comment, the link title repeated the story's title "Math Proves John Lennon Wrote 'In My Life'". More like "arithmetic suggests" ... There is no mathematical proof here. See also [1]: The model assumes correlated multinomial counts for the bags-of-words as a function of authorship which is then inverted using Bayes rule. Out-of-sample classification accuracy for songs with known authorship was 80%. We demonstrate the results to songs during the study period with unknown authorship. Radio interviews with the presenting author are listed on his web site[2]. [1]: https://ww2.amstat.org/meetings/jsm/2018/onlineprogram/AbstractDetails.cfm?abstractid=329336 https://ww2.amstat.org/meetings/jsm/2018/onlineprogram/Abstr... [2]: http://www.glicko.net/ http://www.glicko.net/
- acqq 8y ago
  My question is: Was the number of the samples relatively small? Both authors made much more music than only while being in the Beatles, and if the later songs (since the Beatles split) were also (or only!) used for training then I could imagine that such a training can be sufficient. But if only the Beatles songs were used, I suspect it could be possibly not enough to be completely sure. Moreover, I can imagine that the contribution to some songs was made by both in various phases, and that that could confuse the algorithm.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
jwilk 8y ago
Text-only version: https://text.npr.org/s.php?sId=637468053 https://text.npr.org/s.php?sId=637468053
- apk-d 8y ago
  Thanks. I wish I had an extension that redirects to text-only npr automatically (their button doesn't redirect to the actual article and I'm assuming they broke their own site on purpose). One of those days I might actually sit down and start making Firefox extensions - especially if I can put together a basic template for quick one-off single-purpose GPDR fixers and such.
  - AlphaWeaver 8y ago
    Speaking from experience, it isn't too hard. The MDN WebExtension documentation is a great place to start, and with very little effort you can write an extension that works in chrome off the same codebase.
    - jwilk 8y ago
      For something as simple as this, writing a separate webext is probably overkill. There are already extensions that let you automatically make custom redirects. (Or you could abuse HTTPS Everywhere for this purpose.) Or you could make a bookmarklet. Or make a user script for Greasemonkey (or a similar extension). For example, I'm using this to fix the "Decline" button: // ==UserScript== // @name npr.org // @namespace jwilk@jwilk.net // @include https://choice.npr.org/* // @grant none // ==/UserScript== document.querySelector('#textLink').href = 'https://text.npr.org/s.php?sId=' + window.location.search.match('[0-9]{9,}');
ianai 8y ago
I’m missing the significance of this? Was the song not released until after Johns death or something?
- lindauer 8y ago
  Lennon and McCartney took equal credit for every song, regardless of who actually wrote what. In some cases, it’s come out who the real songwriter was. In this case, there was disagreement.
- neaden 8y ago
  John Lenon and Paul McCartney split credit for all the songs they wrote during the Beatles, even if the song was primarily or totally written by just one of them. People like to speculate about who wrote what, and after the Beatles broke up both John's would sometimes say who did, but they didn't always agree.
  - fipple 8y ago
    Who are both Johns?
    - vasilipupkin 8y ago
      John Lennon and Paul McCartney :)
      - fipple 8y ago
        Why do you call them both Johns? Is that a Beatles fan inside joke?
        jacobush 8y ago
        Because they are both named ... John?
        sosense 8y ago
estomagordo 8y ago
Would it be terribly unlikely that McCartney tried having fun by emulating Lennon, just for shits and giggles?
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- salimmadjd 8y ago
  I think it's very possible when you collaborate, you mimic the other person's speech or writing patterns. Especially since these guys worked together for so long, you'd think they could finish each others verses.
- stephen_g 8y ago
  The other issue with this kind of analysis is it assumes people are like robots, but sometimes artists just do decide to do something radically different to any of their prior work.
ma2rten 8y ago
"First of all, just to say that this is really serious stuff in terms of what was done." "The probability that McCartney wrote it was .018" "In situations like this, you'd better believe the math because it's much more reliable than people's recollections." The probability was .018 under their model. This doesn't mean that this is the true probability. Naive Bayes probabilities are typically not very reliable [1]. I have not read the paper, but I think his confident wording makes me question how believable this is. [1] Ensembles of models are better, like random forest.
- svrt 8y ago
  I could not find a paper (I was interested in how they constructed the dataset), but only an extended abstract of the talk [1] It seems the dataset consisted of 70 songs. Since they don't specify the distribution, there is no saying if 80% accuracy is good or worse than average guessing. An average of 35 samples per class is a serious few-shot constraint, which makes resorting to interpretable and simple Bayesian analysis a sane step. Note how the dataset is grossly underdefined too: 70 samples and 149 features, which can cause problems for more complex algo's. I think we have to reconstruct this article from behind the pop-sci glasses this was presented with. > this is really serious stuff in terms of what was done Sure, it is no joke paper, nor meandering about music theory without any hard proofs. > "The probability that McCartney wrote it was .018" Probably this meant to say: The model predicts a 0.018 probability, but that is too careful for a pop-sci article. We can then question the validity of the model. > you'd better believe the math because it's much more reliable than people's recollections "Ha-ha! People did a lot of drugs in the 60s!" nothing more... > And 10 years later, here we are talking about the discovery. Also cute, in that it makes it sound like one of the authors spend 10 years working on this very basic analysis. Meta: This article would have been published 10 years ago too (since the finding is interesting from a pop-sci view), but I doubt they would even dare describing the maths behind the publication. Now we are in techno-fetish era and write about the number of layers, GPU hours, BoW, and value networks, just to fool the reader into getting a glimpse of modern AI. While the methods in this article can be implemented in 1 hour of downloading Midi files and another hour of implementing Graham's 2002: A plan for spam. [2] [1] https://www.amstat.org/asa/files/pdfs/pressreleases/JSM2018-Lennon-McCartney.pdf https://www.amstat.org/asa/files/pdfs/pressreleases/JSM2018-... [2] http://www.paulgraham.com/spam.html http://www.paulgraham.com/spam.html
et2o 8y ago
I wish I was as confident in anything as these guys are in the predictive accuracy of their simple model with an out-of-sample accuracy of 80%[1] with limited and questionable training data. [1] Accuracy is probably a misleading performance metric here as well
- leoc 8y ago
  And I'm not sure how sound it is to assume that the authorship of any Lennon-McCartney song can simply be attributed to Lennon and/or McCartney. I mean, the one-name answer to "who wrote 'Your Mother Should Know'?" is probably "Irving Berlin" https://www.beatlesbible.com/forum/the-songs/a-few-possible-song-inspirations/#p202017 https://www.beatlesbible.com/forum/the-songs/a-few-possible-... https://www.beatlesbible.com/forum/the-songs/a-few-possible-song-inspirations/#p290910 https://www.beatlesbible.com/forum/the-songs/a-few-possible-... .
tartrate 8y ago
The author makes it sound like Lennon is still alive. "The two even debate between themselves — their memories seem to differ when it comes to who wrote the music for 1965's "In My Life."" "[...] they're still the same people, and they have their preferences without realizing it."
pishpash 8y ago
> For sure. And that's why it's hard for the human ear to tell the thing apart. Lost me there. Bag-of-words model is not better than the human ear, I'm sorry.
- froogie 8y ago
  Perhaps you could elaborate on this?
- glup 8y ago
  It is for author identification tasks like the methods they use here. People aren't super sensitive to the relevant language statistics.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
2bitencryption 8y ago
Most people with a certain level of obsession about The Beatles would certainly recognize the song as Lennon's, though with some amount of input from McCartney that could range from no involvement to half-and-half. It's too conjunct to be Paul's, but that doesn't mean he didn't give any input. I question this analysis because it seems like an easy target -- the song obviously has Lennon's fingerprint on it (a melody hovering around just a few notes with thick harmonies), and the headline of "study reveals new insight into Beatles songwriting" is too juicy for my liking.
- brianberns 8y ago
  Both John and Paul agree that Paul wrote at least some of the music, and yet this article says that John wrote the whole thing. I believe John and Paul.
- rmrfrmrf 8y ago
  What this article seems to also be missing is that there are actually two versions of the song. I'd say that the final recording is indisputably Lennon, but the original is very much McCartney. The final version's lyrics are abstract and have the interplay of dark and light. The original version is very concrete and almost ballad-like, very much McCartney's style (it even mentions Penny Lane). What this kind of approach misses is that shared writing credits don't necessarily mean writing together at the same time. While the two have been known to go off and write a piece together, I think there's a decent argument to be made that McCartney sketched out the idea for "In My Life" and Lennon refined it.
  - itronitron 8y ago
    Yes, they seem to think that the song has a single incarnation and didn't go through an iterative process of creative development.
pstuart 8y ago
He who sang it, wrote it (except for Ringo)
cwyers 8y ago
> Mathematics professor Jason Brown spent 10 years working with statistics to solve the magical mystery. > The three co-authors of this paper — there was someone called Mark Glickman who was a statistician at Harvard. He's also a classical pianist. Another person, another Harvard professor of engineering, called Ryan Song. And the third person was a Dalhousie University mathematician called Jason Brown. It took three people ten years to do this? Also all the reporting here is awful. This is nothing like a proof.
gdubs 8y ago
I’m too lazy to read the paper right now but I’m curious: if we can’t trust the memories of Paul & John, how did they train the model on the 70 other songs in the first place?

148 points by henrik_w 8y ago

Edit, FYI: When I posted this comment, the link title repeated the story's title "Math Proves John Lennon Wrote 'In My Life'". More like "arithmetic suggests" ... There is no mathematical proof here. See also [1]: The model assumes correlated multinomial counts for the bags-of-words as a function of authorship which is then inverted using Bayes rule. Out-of-sample classification accuracy for songs with known authorship was 80%. We demonstrate the results to songs during the study period with unknown authorship. Radio interviews with the presenting author are listed on his web site[2]. [1]: https://ww2.amstat.org/meetings/jsm/2018/onlineprogram/AbstractDetails.cfm?abstractid=329336 https://ww2.amstat.org/meetings/jsm/2018/onlineprogram/Abstr... [2]: http://www.glicko.net/ http://www.glicko.net/

acqq 8y ago
My question is: Was the number of the samples relatively small? Both authors made much more music than only while being in the Beatles, and if the later songs (since the Beatles split) were also (or only!) used for training then I could imagine that such a training can be sufficient. But if only the Beatles songs were used, I suspect it could be possibly not enough to be completely sure. Moreover, I can imagine that the contribution to some songs was made by both in various phases, and that that could confuse the algorithm.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

jwilk 8y ago

Text-only version: https://text.npr.org/s.php?sId=637468053 https://text.npr.org/s.php?sId=637468053

apk-d 8y ago
Thanks. I wish I had an extension that redirects to text-only npr automatically (their button doesn't redirect to the actual article and I'm assuming they broke their own site on purpose). One of those days I might actually sit down and start making Firefox extensions - especially if I can put together a basic template for quick one-off single-purpose GPDR fixers and such.
- AlphaWeaver 8y ago
  Speaking from experience, it isn't too hard. The MDN WebExtension documentation is a great place to start, and with very little effort you can write an extension that works in chrome off the same codebase.
  - jwilk 8y ago
    For something as simple as this, writing a separate webext is probably overkill. There are already extensions that let you automatically make custom redirects. (Or you could abuse HTTPS Everywhere for this purpose.) Or you could make a bookmarklet. Or make a user script for Greasemonkey (or a similar extension). For example, I'm using this to fix the "Decline" button: // ==UserScript== // @name npr.org // @namespace jwilk@jwilk.net // @include https://choice.npr.org/* // @grant none // ==/UserScript== document.querySelector('#textLink').href = 'https://text.npr.org/s.php?sId=' + window.location.search.match('[0-9]{9,}');

ianai 8y ago

I’m missing the significance of this? Was the song not released until after Johns death or something?

lindauer 8y ago
Lennon and McCartney took equal credit for every song, regardless of who actually wrote what. In some cases, it’s come out who the real songwriter was. In this case, there was disagreement.
neaden 8y ago
John Lenon and Paul McCartney split credit for all the songs they wrote during the Beatles, even if the song was primarily or totally written by just one of them. People like to speculate about who wrote what, and after the Beatles broke up both John's would sometimes say who did, but they didn't always agree.
- fipple 8y ago
  Who are both Johns?
  - vasilipupkin 8y ago
    John Lennon and Paul McCartney :)
    - fipple 8y ago
      Why do you call them both Johns? Is that a Beatles fan inside joke?
      - jacobush 8y ago
        Because they are both named ... John?
        sosense 8y ago

estomagordo 8y ago

Would it be terribly unlikely that McCartney tried having fun by emulating Lennon, just for shits and giggles?

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
salimmadjd 8y ago
I think it's very possible when you collaborate, you mimic the other person's speech or writing patterns. Especially since these guys worked together for so long, you'd think they could finish each others verses.
stephen_g 8y ago
The other issue with this kind of analysis is it assumes people are like robots, but sometimes artists just do decide to do something radically different to any of their prior work.

ma2rten 8y ago

"First of all, just to say that this is really serious stuff in terms of what was done." "The probability that McCartney wrote it was .018" "In situations like this, you'd better believe the math because it's much more reliable than people's recollections." The probability was .018 under their model. This doesn't mean that this is the true probability. Naive Bayes probabilities are typically not very reliable [1]. I have not read the paper, but I think his confident wording makes me question how believable this is. [1] Ensembles of models are better, like random forest.

svrt 8y ago
I could not find a paper (I was interested in how they constructed the dataset), but only an extended abstract of the talk [1] It seems the dataset consisted of 70 songs. Since they don't specify the distribution, there is no saying if 80% accuracy is good or worse than average guessing. An average of 35 samples per class is a serious few-shot constraint, which makes resorting to interpretable and simple Bayesian analysis a sane step. Note how the dataset is grossly underdefined too: 70 samples and 149 features, which can cause problems for more complex algo's. I think we have to reconstruct this article from behind the pop-sci glasses this was presented with. > this is really serious stuff in terms of what was done Sure, it is no joke paper, nor meandering about music theory without any hard proofs. > "The probability that McCartney wrote it was .018" Probably this meant to say: The model predicts a 0.018 probability, but that is too careful for a pop-sci article. We can then question the validity of the model. > you'd better believe the math because it's much more reliable than people's recollections "Ha-ha! People did a lot of drugs in the 60s!" nothing more... > And 10 years later, here we are talking about the discovery. Also cute, in that it makes it sound like one of the authors spend 10 years working on this very basic analysis. Meta: This article would have been published 10 years ago too (since the finding is interesting from a pop-sci view), but I doubt they would even dare describing the maths behind the publication. Now we are in techno-fetish era and write about the number of layers, GPU hours, BoW, and value networks, just to fool the reader into getting a glimpse of modern AI. While the methods in this article can be implemented in 1 hour of downloading Midi files and another hour of implementing Graham's 2002: A plan for spam. [2] [1] https://www.amstat.org/asa/files/pdfs/pressreleases/JSM2018-Lennon-McCartney.pdf https://www.amstat.org/asa/files/pdfs/pressreleases/JSM2018-... [2] http://www.paulgraham.com/spam.html http://www.paulgraham.com/spam.html

et2o 8y ago

I wish I was as confident in anything as these guys are in the predictive accuracy of their simple model with an out-of-sample accuracy of 80%[1] with limited and questionable training data. [1] Accuracy is probably a misleading performance metric here as well

leoc 8y ago
And I'm not sure how sound it is to assume that the authorship of any Lennon-McCartney song can simply be attributed to Lennon and/or McCartney. I mean, the one-name answer to "who wrote 'Your Mother Should Know'?" is probably "Irving Berlin" https://www.beatlesbible.com/forum/the-songs/a-few-possible-song-inspirations/#p202017 https://www.beatlesbible.com/forum/the-songs/a-few-possible-... https://www.beatlesbible.com/forum/the-songs/a-few-possible-song-inspirations/#p290910 https://www.beatlesbible.com/forum/the-songs/a-few-possible-... .

tartrate 8y ago

The author makes it sound like Lennon is still alive. "The two even debate between themselves — their memories seem to differ when it comes to who wrote the music for 1965's "In My Life."" "[...] they're still the same people, and they have their preferences without realizing it."

pishpash 8y ago

> For sure. And that's why it's hard for the human ear to tell the thing apart. Lost me there. Bag-of-words model is not better than the human ear, I'm sorry.

froogie 8y ago
Perhaps you could elaborate on this?
glup 8y ago
It is for author identification tasks like the methods they use here. People aren't super sensitive to the relevant language statistics.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

2bitencryption 8y ago

Most people with a certain level of obsession about The Beatles would certainly recognize the song as Lennon's, though with some amount of input from McCartney that could range from no involvement to half-and-half. It's too conjunct to be Paul's, but that doesn't mean he didn't give any input. I question this analysis because it seems like an easy target -- the song obviously has Lennon's fingerprint on it (a melody hovering around just a few notes with thick harmonies), and the headline of "study reveals new insight into Beatles songwriting" is too juicy for my liking.

brianberns 8y ago
Both John and Paul agree that Paul wrote at least some of the music, and yet this article says that John wrote the whole thing. I believe John and Paul.
rmrfrmrf 8y ago
What this article seems to also be missing is that there are actually two versions of the song. I'd say that the final recording is indisputably Lennon, but the original is very much McCartney. The final version's lyrics are abstract and have the interplay of dark and light. The original version is very concrete and almost ballad-like, very much McCartney's style (it even mentions Penny Lane). What this kind of approach misses is that shared writing credits don't necessarily mean writing together at the same time. While the two have been known to go off and write a piece together, I think there's a decent argument to be made that McCartney sketched out the idea for "In My Life" and Lennon refined it.
- itronitron 8y ago
  Yes, they seem to think that the song has a single incarnation and didn't go through an iterative process of creative development.

pstuart 8y ago

He who sang it, wrote it (except for Ringo)

cwyers 8y ago

> Mathematics professor Jason Brown spent 10 years working with statistics to solve the magical mystery. > The three co-authors of this paper — there was someone called Mark Glickman who was a statistician at Harvard. He's also a classical pianist. Another person, another Harvard professor of engineering, called Ryan Song. And the third person was a Dalhousie University mathematician called Jason Brown. It took three people ten years to do this? Also all the reporting here is awful. This is nothing like a proof.

gdubs 8y ago

I’m too lazy to read the paper right now but I’m curious: if we can’t trust the memories of Paul & John, how did they train the model on the 70 other songs in the first place?