4 ms·

Common compared to what? Taking an average of an empty array is nonsensical.

by drb91 8y ago

mlthoughts2018 8y ago
I disagree. It’s similar to computing NaN-mean or NaN-sum for an array of all NaN values (which returns 0). Let’s say some program calculates the mean of an array and then adds that mean to some accumulator. For purposes of updating the accumulator, the mean of an empty array is perfectly well-defined: it should add nothing to the accumulator (add 0). This might be a major operating requirement for the mean function, such that rather than guarding or pattern-matching on an empty array and handling a failure is far worse than having a better 0-length convention. Consider the difference between the “head” function of some List type, which has to either raise an exception or wrap the return value in some Maybe structure, because it’s literally not definable, vs the “length” function which has an obvious natural definition for empty arrays that is often highly preferred to some design where length(empty_list) throws an exception and everyone has to handle it in little bits of custom code to specify 0. To me this topic is all about usability and not about some parochial claim that some operation is nonsensical.
- drb91 8y ago
  > It’s similar to computing NaN-mean or NaN-sum for an array of all NaN values (which returns 0). Why would you want to do this rather than validating understanding of the data before computing on this? > For purposes of updating the accumulator, the mean of an empty array is perfectly well-defined: it should add nothing to the acculator (add 0). That's not a mean, though, that's a quirk of how you decide to (incorrectly) compute a mean. What's the point of such a program? It should refuse to compute when it's given no values--that's clearly a category error. Otherwise, you're not using a mean, you're using a mean-or-0-when-lacking-a-mean. Might as well not call it a mean at all so other people can read your code. Yes, this is pedantic, but this kind of subtle changing meaning of terms is exactly what leads to bugs. Name your functions accurately.
  - mlthoughts2018 8y ago
    From your response I can tell you don’t do much numerical linear algebra work. Consider needs to vectorize a large column-wise mean calculation across columns of a large data matrix (where NaN values are sparse but appreciable). The NaNs might be perfectly reasonable, expected pieces of data, but you still want to understand the distribution of the non-NaN data, and adding extra work to filter it out first might be hugely costly, or even actually wrong depending on what other operations the NaN data is planned to be passed to and how those operations natively handle NaN. And simple columnar summary stats are just the tip of the iceberg. It gets much more complicated. By no means is the solution of “diagnose why there are NaNs ahead of time and preprocess them accordingly” even remotely realistic in most use cases. This is why libraries like pandas, numpy and scipy for instance provide specific nan-ignoring functions or function parameters.
    - nicops 8y ago
      That's all fine and dandy, but conceptually it's wrong to say the average of an array is 0, and can and will lead to wrong results in a variety of cases. I'm sure you can think of a lot of these cases yourself. I think in the history of computer science we programmers have found that there are a lot of convenience shortcuts that make sense in a lot of cases but bite our asses in other. Implicit is fast and fun, but it's nice to have your seatbelt on when the car crashes. Going back to the average case, if you want an average function that returns 0 on empty arrays, fine. But that's not the average function, and you shouldn't call it that way, and names matter, you should call it averageOrZero or something like that.
      - mlthoughts2018 8y ago
        Why is it conceptually wrong to say the average of an empty array is zero? My undergrad degree is in pure math and my grad degree is in mathematical statistics and I’ve never heard an idea like saying the mean of an empty array is zero is “conceptually wrong.” You bring up the history of CS, but even there you have debates about what convention to use for defining 1/0 for function totality and theorem provers. There’s no aspect of pure math derivation of number systems on up through vector spaces that definitively makes a zero mean for an empty array ill-defined. Whatever choice you make, positive infinity, undefined, 0, or any finite values, etc., any such choice is purely down to convention that depends precisely on your use case.

Common compared to what? Taking an average of an empty array is nonsensical.

by drb91 8y ago

Common compared to what? Taking an average of an empty array is nonsensical.

mlthoughts2018 8y ago

I disagree. It’s similar to computing NaN-mean or NaN-sum for an array of all NaN values (which returns 0). Let’s say some program calculates the mean of an array and then adds that mean to some accumulator. For purposes of updating the accumulator, the mean of an empty array is perfectly well-defined: it should add nothing to the accumulator (add 0). This might be a major operating requirement for the mean function, such that rather than guarding or pattern-matching on an empty array and handling a failure is far worse than having a better 0-length convention. Consider the difference between the “head” function of some List type, which has to either raise an exception or wrap the return value in some Maybe structure, because it’s literally not definable, vs the “length” function which has an obvious natural definition for empty arrays that is often highly preferred to some design where length(empty_list) throws an exception and everyone has to handle it in little bits of custom code to specify 0. To me this topic is all about usability and not about some parochial claim that some operation is nonsensical.

drb91 8y ago
> It’s similar to computing NaN-mean or NaN-sum for an array of all NaN values (which returns 0). Why would you want to do this rather than validating understanding of the data before computing on this? > For purposes of updating the accumulator, the mean of an empty array is perfectly well-defined: it should add nothing to the acculator (add 0). That's not a mean, though, that's a quirk of how you decide to (incorrectly) compute a mean. What's the point of such a program? It should refuse to compute when it's given no values--that's clearly a category error. Otherwise, you're not using a mean, you're using a mean-or-0-when-lacking-a-mean. Might as well not call it a mean at all so other people can read your code. Yes, this is pedantic, but this kind of subtle changing meaning of terms is exactly what leads to bugs. Name your functions accurately.
- mlthoughts2018 8y ago
  From your response I can tell you don’t do much numerical linear algebra work. Consider needs to vectorize a large column-wise mean calculation across columns of a large data matrix (where NaN values are sparse but appreciable). The NaNs might be perfectly reasonable, expected pieces of data, but you still want to understand the distribution of the non-NaN data, and adding extra work to filter it out first might be hugely costly, or even actually wrong depending on what other operations the NaN data is planned to be passed to and how those operations natively handle NaN. And simple columnar summary stats are just the tip of the iceberg. It gets much more complicated. By no means is the solution of “diagnose why there are NaNs ahead of time and preprocess them accordingly” even remotely realistic in most use cases. This is why libraries like pandas, numpy and scipy for instance provide specific nan-ignoring functions or function parameters.
  - nicops 8y ago
    That's all fine and dandy, but conceptually it's wrong to say the average of an array is 0, and can and will lead to wrong results in a variety of cases. I'm sure you can think of a lot of these cases yourself. I think in the history of computer science we programmers have found that there are a lot of convenience shortcuts that make sense in a lot of cases but bite our asses in other. Implicit is fast and fun, but it's nice to have your seatbelt on when the car crashes. Going back to the average case, if you want an average function that returns 0 on empty arrays, fine. But that's not the average function, and you shouldn't call it that way, and names matter, you should call it averageOrZero or something like that.
    - mlthoughts2018 8y ago
      Why is it conceptually wrong to say the average of an empty array is zero? My undergrad degree is in pure math and my grad degree is in mathematical statistics and I’ve never heard an idea like saying the mean of an empty array is zero is “conceptually wrong.” You bring up the history of CS, but even there you have debates about what convention to use for defining 1/0 for function totality and theorem provers. There’s no aspect of pure math derivation of number systems on up through vector spaces that definitively makes a zero mean for an empty array ill-defined. Whatever choice you make, positive infinity, undefined, 0, or any finite values, etc., any such choice is purely down to convention that depends precisely on your use case.