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California Wildfires: Inmates Are Risking Their Lives for $2 a Day

asdkhadsj 8y ago
Slave trade. edit: I'm inclined to delete this comment, as it doesn't offer anything and treats HN like Reddit.. or something. Yet, seeing the title alone disgusts me that America (which I'm part of) allows this to go on.. so I have to leave the comment. Feel free to downvote or remove my comment if you feel it adds nothing of value.
- vkou 8y ago
  And yet, here we are, concerned that immigrants are taking our jobs - when we have prisoners doing them for free.
- d0lph 8y ago
  Interesting it's allowed for by the 13th amendment. Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction. edit: don't be so harsh on yourself, establishing a comparison between penal labor and slavery is an interesting point, even if you did so in a non chalant manner
  - chrischen 8y ago
    Combined with the systematic targeted incarceration of black people and they’ve basically figured out a loop hole to the abolition of slavery.
    - blankname 8y ago
      Who is "they"? I'll be honest, most people who use vague terms like this and act like there is a segment of society out to get them seem like Alex Jones to me
      - hnbroseph 8y ago
        alternatively, the demand for specific individuals as a retort is a sort of dissembling misdirection. "they" doesn't generally mean very specific individuals, but systems, processes "the powers that be", etc.
      - zapita 8y ago
        Maybe that's because you're part of a privileged group that doesn't experience discrimination and targeted hate every day? For you, the idea of a segment of society being out to get you is a delusion. For millions of others, it's a concrete reality. If you're in a minority group in the US, you know exactly who "they" are in the parent's sentence.
      - chrischen 8y ago
        For starters, Richard Nixon: https://www.cnn.com/2016/03/23/politics/john-ehrlichman-richard-nixon-drug-war-blacks-hippie/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2016/03/23/politics/john-ehrlichman-rich... Source above is provided for your convenience. You can't just identify who "they" are because it's not black and white like the way they targeted black people. It extends from Nixon to Nixon supporters, white people, Asian people, cops, robbers, and even other black people. It can include all those people but not necessarily every of those people. This is because it's not a distinct group targeting black people, but a way of thinking. Obviously by paying taxes I also help support the system to some degree. The problem can even be as innocuous as the unintentional indirect disenfranchisement of black people by simply doing "favors" or preferring everyone but black people in everyday life. > ...most people who use vague terms like this and act like there is a segment of society out to get them I'm not using this term to act like there is a segment of society out to get me (what I assume you mean when you said "people" and "them".). I'm using "they" to describe the group disenfranchising "black people" who are a group that is distinct from anything that I identify as (racially at least)... The reason why I say a vague "they" is because this group cannot be defined simply by a 1-dimensional construct such as skin color, ethnicity, political party, etc. I don't think it does any good to describe them as "racists" either as many people will discriminate unknowingly, unintentionally, simply due to it being the predominant normal behavior. This "they" can be white, Asian, police, a drug gang, even other black people... because it describes a mindset that systematically discriminates and disenfranchise a group based on their outward characteristics rather than evaluating them as individuals. Does it blow your mind that one can observe such discrimination without being the direct target of it? Because in the end it's not really an attack on black people, it's just an attack, and such a thing can happen to any group, and has.
    - zapita 8y ago
      I don't know why you're being downvoted (or perhaps I am not willing to face the obvious answer...). What you're saying is an objective fact. Both the political intent of re-implementing slavery by other means, and the effective result, are well documented.
  - giarc 8y ago
    Except the firefighting job isn't a punishment of a crime. They are volunteering for this job, no one is making them do it.
    - UncleEntity 8y ago
      My uncle used to love fire season back in his convict days so he could get out into nature and have something to pass the time.
    - hnbroseph 8y ago
      "volunteering"... you can do nothing in a cage (while under threat of violence and abuse given the environment) or get a shiny nickel for doing a day's backbreaking labor, and some exploitive corp makes bank by saving on salary costs. deeply, thoroughly disgusting.
      - oarsinsync 8y ago
        Unsure if fiction and reality are aligned here, but at least in Orange is the new Black, inmates are deemed incapable of giving consent (when considering sexual relations with guards). If that’s true, does it extend out past sexual activities through to workplace choices? Do they actually have a choice, do they actually consent? What’s the difference? Where’s the line?
        dba7dba 8y ago
        In Netflix 'Fire Camp' doc, there's a section on inmates who join to fight fires. From what I could see, they inmates have to pass strict conditioning/training to actually work as a fire fighter. I'd guess if one didn't want to do it, he/she could just slack off and not join. Look it up and watch the show if you can.
  - gwbas1c 8y ago
    I'm glad you posted that. I was about to post that the inmates should sue claiming that they are slaves. I wonder if someone who understands the law better than I could could argue that they were not "duly convicted."
  - oarsinsync 8y ago
    There’s a documentary on Netflix called 13th that discusses this very point in much more depth. Despite the somber and serious nature, it’s a surprisingly light watch. Check out “13TH” on Netflix https://www.netflix.com/title/80091741 https://www.netflix.com/title/80091741
- TomK32 8y ago
  it's a democracy, run for office and change the system. just one small piece of it is who goes to prison in the first place. john oliver had a segment on prosecutors and that they need more competition https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ET_b78GSBUs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ET_b78GSBUs
  - Moto7451 8y ago
    Or since it’s California, skip the running for office part and get your law on the ballot via direct democracy. https://www.eduplace.com/kids/socsci/ca/books/bkd/wklyrdr/u5_article2.shtml https://www.eduplace.com/kids/socsci/ca/books/bkd/wklyrdr/u5...
- ra1n85 8y ago
  For every day worked, inmates have days removed from their sentence and are paid for hours worked. Comparing this to slavery is silly hyperbole.
  - hnbroseph 8y ago
    slaves throughout history had lodging and meals provided, so it seems we can say they had a sort of compensation structure too.
    - ra1n85 8y ago
      Slaves were forced to perform labor. These inmates are not forced to perform this labor, and they are compensated for it.
      - hnbroseph 8y ago
        slaves were compensated with food, and were incentivized through application of force. inmates are under constant threat of violence and abuse, which is itself a force. escaping that force briefly to do hard labor is a sad tradeoff and it is a cynical and disgusting brand of exploitation.
      - sp332 8y ago
        Usually threatening to put someone in jail if they don't work for you is considered "force".
        chlvsl 8y ago
        they are already in jail for committing crimes and are offered between status quo or to fight fires. they are already in jail, so you cannot threaten to put someone into a situation they are already in.
        throwaway8689 8y ago
        They're already in jail. The work is not mandatory. I'm interested to hear arguments from prison abolitionists but this is just hyperbole.
- bsder 8y ago
  > Slave trade. They are not forced to do this. The fact that volunteering for this kind of duty is better than daily life in prison bespeaks a different problem.
- dave_null 8y ago
  I made an account to respond to you. I used to be a volunteer firefighter in California, and I agree, they are severely under compensated for the work they do. As a volunteer, I at least had workers' compensation coverage if I was injured or killed in the line of duty. The prison firefighters I worked with regularly were as dedicated and well trained as any other firefighter I had the pleasure of working with and would trust them to watch my back. Very few people knew they were prisoners outside of the departments in the area, either. Most of the guys I worked with I would have been proud to see on my department after their release, and it bothers me that they are denied the opportunity after serving so long as firefighters within the penal system.
- xendo 8y ago
  I don't see why inmates shouldn't work, that's the least they can do to pay back for the harm they have done. Also last time I checked it's really expensive to maintain prison system in US, who do you identify with more poor people or criminals?
- AimForTheBushes 8y ago
  The alternative is to serve their publicly mandated sentences in a cell, if they so choose.
joshuawright11 8y ago
Inmates ... are allowed to volunteer for the firefighting program and are trained for two weeks in fire safety... Once the exam is passed, prisoners are sent to live in one of 43 low-security field camps throughout the state. Inmates do recognize that there are perks to the job. Their outdoor camps allow for more freedom. The food is better and grown in on-site gardens. Families are allowed to use barbecue pits for their visits and can often spend the night in nearby cabins. It's voluntary, gives inmates a change to spend outside time in low security environments (potentially seeing family), gives them a break from monotonous prison environments AND gives them 2 days off their sentence for every one day served. Not sure how this voluntary labor with significant benefits for an inmate is equivalent to slavery.
- zapita 8y ago
  > It's voluntary and gives inmates a chance to [...] Bullshit. Nothing is truly voluntary when you are in a situation of such extreme power imbalance. Other things that are voluntary in name only: pleading guilty because the DA made you an "offer you can't refuse"; working in a prison-run sweatshop for a fraction of minimum wage; buying basic necessity goods at a huge premium from the prison store. > Not sure how this voluntary labor is any worse than involuntary community service. You are correct, they are equally terrible.
  - joshuawright11 8y ago
    I mean, should there be an equal power balance in prisons...?
    - zapita 8y ago
      > I mean, should there be an equal power balance in prisons...? I think a better question is "should inmates be protected from the risk of abuse created by extreme power imbalance? And if so, where do we draw the line as a society?". My answer to the first question is yes, they should be protected. My answer to the second question is: respecting the universal declaration of Human Rights and the US constitution would be a great start.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
giarc 8y ago
I assume firefighters are not unionized in California? Otherwise I imagine the union getting pretty upset that unskilled, non union members are being paid to do the job of union members.
- dave_null 8y ago
  Some departments are. There are two major unions that my department was considering when unions were brought up, the International Association of Firefighters and Service Employees International Union. The IAFF has 30,254 members as of 2015 per the Office of Labor Management Standards and they are roughly 1.1 million firefighters in the US. Ultimately, my department decided not to unionize. I don't actually recall firefighter I worked with from my area being a member of a union as part of being a firefighter, most of them were union through ambulance companies.
- hexane360 8y ago
  That's a pretty bad assumption. . .
  - giarc 8y ago
    I guess I should have said... I assume the firefighters they are working beside are not unionized. I've never seen a union allow un-unionized workers do the job of one of their members.
- bsder 8y ago
  Even if they were, I can't imagine them saying much. When fire season starts in California, you couldn't produce enough hands to get the job done at basically any price.
- Ninjaneered 8y ago
  Cal Fire is unionized, Local 2881. When I was a seasonal firefighter for Cal Fire (CDF at the time), every figherfighter had some level of union support, but there was "Full Share" and "Fair Share" options.
djrogers 8y ago
Title is intentionally inflamatory (no pun intended). It's a voluntary system, for which they get $2/day plus $1/hr, get to live in a low security camp with more freedom than prison, and get 2 days off their sentence for every day they're working. I'm not saying it's enough, or good or bad, but to claim that it's only $2/day is just being willfully ignorant, and really gets in the way of leading any real discussion on what the propert pay should be for prison labor.
thejrk 8y ago
Inmates can choose to do this. Considering that, I don't have a problem with this at all.
ngngngng 8y ago
"See that's that privately owned prisons Get your piece today They prolly all in the Hamptons Braggin' 'bout what they made Fuck you and your Hampton house I'll fuck your Hampton spouse" - Kanye West
petermcneeley 8y ago
I would wager some HN karma that people that are libertarian (classical liberal) likely see no major issue with this practice.
- hassan_shaikley 8y ago
  libertarianism contradicts classical liberalism I think this is where I read the best argument for this (https://chomsky.info/government-in-the-future/ https://chomsky.info/government-in-the-future/) but I might be thinking of a different essay
  - petermcneeley 8y ago
    For obvious reasons libertarianism has multiple meanings. Chomsky is close to anarcho-syndicalism (left) whereas what we commonly call Libertarian today is close to anarcho-capitalism (right). Relating to the article, the inmates are making a choice without direct use of force against them. Libertarians view this choice as voluntary.
rotskoff 8y ago
A lot of the comments here suggest that, because participation is voluntary and because there are other incentives, like spending time outside, reduced sentences, etc, this practice is unquestionably fine. For me, the thing that makes it ethically complex is precisely that there are strong incentives for the prisoners to engage in risky, difficult work. Would you apply the same logic to people engaging voluntarily in affairs with powerful superiors?
- justwalt 8y ago
  I think your example of a powerful superior is a little different. In the case of a superior, there’s a vague implication that non-participation will result in some undesirable outcome like a smaller bonus. It’s basically a monopoly situation where the compensation for dangerous work is pretty low, but all compensation is prison is low.
- Ninjaneered 8y ago
  I worked as a seasonal firefighter for 6 years as I paid my way through college, at the time it was called California Dept. of Forestry (CDF) now California Dept. of Forestry and Fire Protection (or Cal Fire). I worked alongside the very hardworking inmate handcrews many times, their work like mine was difficult and risky yet we both chose to be there. I made great money for my skill/expertise at the time, there isn't much I could have done with my summers that would have benefited me more, so there was a strong incentive for me to go back every summer, even given the inherent risks. I think an argument could be made that for many inmates, the benefit of a reduced sentence is similarly worth the risk, the payout in accrued daily/hourly time is just another bonus. The article mentions not being able to be employed as a firefighter once they are released. This is (or at least was) false, there is (was) no requirement for an EMT and I personally worked with a former inmate as a firefighter and he's a captain now. I've talked to these guys/gals several times and they were all very happy and proud to be there, they had to be on their best behavior to stay and it was certainly a privilege for them. Seriously though, these guys/gals work HARD! They are called handcrews because they use hand tools (chainsaws, axes, Pulaskis, McLeods, etc.) to cut fireline, this is by far the hardest thing I have ever done and they do it for hours in hot and smokey conditions. When we would see an inmate crew coming, it made our day and we were all very thankful for them. Note, my hourly pay wasn't actually great, but during fires I racked up tons of overtime. It probably isn't too much different than locking an McDonald's employee in for weeks at a time, but having to pay them for the entire time they were there.
mesozoic 8y ago
$2 + 2 days of freedom

Slave trade. edit: I'm inclined to delete this comment, as it doesn't offer anything and treats HN like Reddit.. or something. Yet, seeing the title alone disgusts me that America (which I'm part of) allows this to go on.. so I have to leave the comment. Feel free to downvote or remove my comment if you feel it adds nothing of value.

vkou 8y ago
And yet, here we are, concerned that immigrants are taking our jobs - when we have prisoners doing them for free.
d0lph 8y ago
Interesting it's allowed for by the 13th amendment. Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction. edit: don't be so harsh on yourself, establishing a comparison between penal labor and slavery is an interesting point, even if you did so in a non chalant manner
- chrischen 8y ago
  Combined with the systematic targeted incarceration of black people and they’ve basically figured out a loop hole to the abolition of slavery.
  - blankname 8y ago
    Who is "they"? I'll be honest, most people who use vague terms like this and act like there is a segment of society out to get them seem like Alex Jones to me
    - hnbroseph 8y ago
      alternatively, the demand for specific individuals as a retort is a sort of dissembling misdirection. "they" doesn't generally mean very specific individuals, but systems, processes "the powers that be", etc.
    - zapita 8y ago
      Maybe that's because you're part of a privileged group that doesn't experience discrimination and targeted hate every day? For you, the idea of a segment of society being out to get you is a delusion. For millions of others, it's a concrete reality. If you're in a minority group in the US, you know exactly who "they" are in the parent's sentence.
    - chrischen 8y ago
      For starters, Richard Nixon: https://www.cnn.com/2016/03/23/politics/john-ehrlichman-richard-nixon-drug-war-blacks-hippie/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2016/03/23/politics/john-ehrlichman-rich... Source above is provided for your convenience. You can't just identify who "they" are because it's not black and white like the way they targeted black people. It extends from Nixon to Nixon supporters, white people, Asian people, cops, robbers, and even other black people. It can include all those people but not necessarily every of those people. This is because it's not a distinct group targeting black people, but a way of thinking. Obviously by paying taxes I also help support the system to some degree. The problem can even be as innocuous as the unintentional indirect disenfranchisement of black people by simply doing "favors" or preferring everyone but black people in everyday life. > ...most people who use vague terms like this and act like there is a segment of society out to get them I'm not using this term to act like there is a segment of society out to get me (what I assume you mean when you said "people" and "them".). I'm using "they" to describe the group disenfranchising "black people" who are a group that is distinct from anything that I identify as (racially at least)... The reason why I say a vague "they" is because this group cannot be defined simply by a 1-dimensional construct such as skin color, ethnicity, political party, etc. I don't think it does any good to describe them as "racists" either as many people will discriminate unknowingly, unintentionally, simply due to it being the predominant normal behavior. This "they" can be white, Asian, police, a drug gang, even other black people... because it describes a mindset that systematically discriminates and disenfranchise a group based on their outward characteristics rather than evaluating them as individuals. Does it blow your mind that one can observe such discrimination without being the direct target of it? Because in the end it's not really an attack on black people, it's just an attack, and such a thing can happen to any group, and has.
  - zapita 8y ago
    I don't know why you're being downvoted (or perhaps I am not willing to face the obvious answer...). What you're saying is an objective fact. Both the political intent of re-implementing slavery by other means, and the effective result, are well documented.
- giarc 8y ago
  Except the firefighting job isn't a punishment of a crime. They are volunteering for this job, no one is making them do it.
  - UncleEntity 8y ago
    My uncle used to love fire season back in his convict days so he could get out into nature and have something to pass the time.
  - hnbroseph 8y ago
    "volunteering"... you can do nothing in a cage (while under threat of violence and abuse given the environment) or get a shiny nickel for doing a day's backbreaking labor, and some exploitive corp makes bank by saving on salary costs. deeply, thoroughly disgusting.
    - oarsinsync 8y ago
      Unsure if fiction and reality are aligned here, but at least in Orange is the new Black, inmates are deemed incapable of giving consent (when considering sexual relations with guards). If that’s true, does it extend out past sexual activities through to workplace choices? Do they actually have a choice, do they actually consent? What’s the difference? Where’s the line?
      - dba7dba 8y ago
        In Netflix 'Fire Camp' doc, there's a section on inmates who join to fight fires. From what I could see, they inmates have to pass strict conditioning/training to actually work as a fire fighter. I'd guess if one didn't want to do it, he/she could just slack off and not join. Look it up and watch the show if you can.
- gwbas1c 8y ago
  I'm glad you posted that. I was about to post that the inmates should sue claiming that they are slaves. I wonder if someone who understands the law better than I could could argue that they were not "duly convicted."
- oarsinsync 8y ago
  There’s a documentary on Netflix called 13th that discusses this very point in much more depth. Despite the somber and serious nature, it’s a surprisingly light watch. Check out “13TH” on Netflix https://www.netflix.com/title/80091741 https://www.netflix.com/title/80091741
TomK32 8y ago
it's a democracy, run for office and change the system. just one small piece of it is who goes to prison in the first place. john oliver had a segment on prosecutors and that they need more competition https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ET_b78GSBUs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ET_b78GSBUs
- Moto7451 8y ago
  Or since it’s California, skip the running for office part and get your law on the ballot via direct democracy. https://www.eduplace.com/kids/socsci/ca/books/bkd/wklyrdr/u5_article2.shtml https://www.eduplace.com/kids/socsci/ca/books/bkd/wklyrdr/u5...
ra1n85 8y ago
For every day worked, inmates have days removed from their sentence and are paid for hours worked. Comparing this to slavery is silly hyperbole.
- hnbroseph 8y ago
  slaves throughout history had lodging and meals provided, so it seems we can say they had a sort of compensation structure too.
  - ra1n85 8y ago
    Slaves were forced to perform labor. These inmates are not forced to perform this labor, and they are compensated for it.
    - hnbroseph 8y ago
      slaves were compensated with food, and were incentivized through application of force. inmates are under constant threat of violence and abuse, which is itself a force. escaping that force briefly to do hard labor is a sad tradeoff and it is a cynical and disgusting brand of exploitation.
    - sp332 8y ago
      Usually threatening to put someone in jail if they don't work for you is considered "force".
      - chlvsl 8y ago
        they are already in jail for committing crimes and are offered between status quo or to fight fires. they are already in jail, so you cannot threaten to put someone into a situation they are already in.
      - throwaway8689 8y ago
        They're already in jail. The work is not mandatory. I'm interested to hear arguments from prison abolitionists but this is just hyperbole.
bsder 8y ago
> Slave trade. They are not forced to do this. The fact that volunteering for this kind of duty is better than daily life in prison bespeaks a different problem.
dave_null 8y ago
I made an account to respond to you. I used to be a volunteer firefighter in California, and I agree, they are severely under compensated for the work they do. As a volunteer, I at least had workers' compensation coverage if I was injured or killed in the line of duty. The prison firefighters I worked with regularly were as dedicated and well trained as any other firefighter I had the pleasure of working with and would trust them to watch my back. Very few people knew they were prisoners outside of the departments in the area, either. Most of the guys I worked with I would have been proud to see on my department after their release, and it bothers me that they are denied the opportunity after serving so long as firefighters within the penal system.
xendo 8y ago
I don't see why inmates shouldn't work, that's the least they can do to pay back for the harm they have done. Also last time I checked it's really expensive to maintain prison system in US, who do you identify with more poor people or criminals?
AimForTheBushes 8y ago
The alternative is to serve their publicly mandated sentences in a cell, if they so choose.

joshuawright11 8y ago

Inmates ... are allowed to volunteer for the firefighting program and are trained for two weeks in fire safety... Once the exam is passed, prisoners are sent to live in one of 43 low-security field camps throughout the state. Inmates do recognize that there are perks to the job. Their outdoor camps allow for more freedom. The food is better and grown in on-site gardens. Families are allowed to use barbecue pits for their visits and can often spend the night in nearby cabins. It's voluntary, gives inmates a change to spend outside time in low security environments (potentially seeing family), gives them a break from monotonous prison environments AND gives them 2 days off their sentence for every one day served. Not sure how this voluntary labor with significant benefits for an inmate is equivalent to slavery.

zapita 8y ago
> It's voluntary and gives inmates a chance to [...] Bullshit. Nothing is truly voluntary when you are in a situation of such extreme power imbalance. Other things that are voluntary in name only: pleading guilty because the DA made you an "offer you can't refuse"; working in a prison-run sweatshop for a fraction of minimum wage; buying basic necessity goods at a huge premium from the prison store. > Not sure how this voluntary labor is any worse than involuntary community service. You are correct, they are equally terrible.
- joshuawright11 8y ago
  I mean, should there be an equal power balance in prisons...?
  - zapita 8y ago
    > I mean, should there be an equal power balance in prisons...? I think a better question is "should inmates be protected from the risk of abuse created by extreme power imbalance? And if so, where do we draw the line as a society?". My answer to the first question is yes, they should be protected. My answer to the second question is: respecting the universal declaration of Human Rights and the US constitution would be a great start.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

giarc 8y ago

I assume firefighters are not unionized in California? Otherwise I imagine the union getting pretty upset that unskilled, non union members are being paid to do the job of union members.

dave_null 8y ago
Some departments are. There are two major unions that my department was considering when unions were brought up, the International Association of Firefighters and Service Employees International Union. The IAFF has 30,254 members as of 2015 per the Office of Labor Management Standards and they are roughly 1.1 million firefighters in the US. Ultimately, my department decided not to unionize. I don't actually recall firefighter I worked with from my area being a member of a union as part of being a firefighter, most of them were union through ambulance companies.
hexane360 8y ago
That's a pretty bad assumption. . .
- giarc 8y ago
  I guess I should have said... I assume the firefighters they are working beside are not unionized. I've never seen a union allow un-unionized workers do the job of one of their members.
bsder 8y ago
Even if they were, I can't imagine them saying much. When fire season starts in California, you couldn't produce enough hands to get the job done at basically any price.
Ninjaneered 8y ago
Cal Fire is unionized, Local 2881. When I was a seasonal firefighter for Cal Fire (CDF at the time), every figherfighter had some level of union support, but there was "Full Share" and "Fair Share" options.

djrogers 8y ago

Title is intentionally inflamatory (no pun intended). It's a voluntary system, for which they get $2/day plus $1/hr, get to live in a low security camp with more freedom than prison, and get 2 days off their sentence for every day they're working. I'm not saying it's enough, or good or bad, but to claim that it's only $2/day is just being willfully ignorant, and really gets in the way of leading any real discussion on what the propert pay should be for prison labor.

thejrk 8y ago

Inmates can choose to do this. Considering that, I don't have a problem with this at all.

ngngngng 8y ago

"See that's that privately owned prisons Get your piece today They prolly all in the Hamptons Braggin' 'bout what they made Fuck you and your Hampton house I'll fuck your Hampton spouse" - Kanye West

petermcneeley 8y ago

I would wager some HN karma that people that are libertarian (classical liberal) likely see no major issue with this practice.

hassan_shaikley 8y ago
libertarianism contradicts classical liberalism I think this is where I read the best argument for this (https://chomsky.info/government-in-the-future/ https://chomsky.info/government-in-the-future/) but I might be thinking of a different essay
- petermcneeley 8y ago
  For obvious reasons libertarianism has multiple meanings. Chomsky is close to anarcho-syndicalism (left) whereas what we commonly call Libertarian today is close to anarcho-capitalism (right). Relating to the article, the inmates are making a choice without direct use of force against them. Libertarians view this choice as voluntary.

rotskoff 8y ago

A lot of the comments here suggest that, because participation is voluntary and because there are other incentives, like spending time outside, reduced sentences, etc, this practice is unquestionably fine. For me, the thing that makes it ethically complex is precisely that there are strong incentives for the prisoners to engage in risky, difficult work. Would you apply the same logic to people engaging voluntarily in affairs with powerful superiors?

justwalt 8y ago
I think your example of a powerful superior is a little different. In the case of a superior, there’s a vague implication that non-participation will result in some undesirable outcome like a smaller bonus. It’s basically a monopoly situation where the compensation for dangerous work is pretty low, but all compensation is prison is low.
Ninjaneered 8y ago
I worked as a seasonal firefighter for 6 years as I paid my way through college, at the time it was called California Dept. of Forestry (CDF) now California Dept. of Forestry and Fire Protection (or Cal Fire). I worked alongside the very hardworking inmate handcrews many times, their work like mine was difficult and risky yet we both chose to be there. I made great money for my skill/expertise at the time, there isn't much I could have done with my summers that would have benefited me more, so there was a strong incentive for me to go back every summer, even given the inherent risks. I think an argument could be made that for many inmates, the benefit of a reduced sentence is similarly worth the risk, the payout in accrued daily/hourly time is just another bonus. The article mentions not being able to be employed as a firefighter once they are released. This is (or at least was) false, there is (was) no requirement for an EMT and I personally worked with a former inmate as a firefighter and he's a captain now. I've talked to these guys/gals several times and they were all very happy and proud to be there, they had to be on their best behavior to stay and it was certainly a privilege for them. Seriously though, these guys/gals work HARD! They are called handcrews because they use hand tools (chainsaws, axes, Pulaskis, McLeods, etc.) to cut fireline, this is by far the hardest thing I have ever done and they do it for hours in hot and smokey conditions. When we would see an inmate crew coming, it made our day and we were all very thankful for them. Note, my hourly pay wasn't actually great, but during fires I racked up tons of overtime. It probably isn't too much different than locking an McDonald's employee in for weeks at a time, but having to pay them for the entire time they were there.

mesozoic 8y ago

$2 + 2 days of freedom