5 ms·

Twitter is wrong: facts are not enough to combat conspiracy theories

19 points by deegles 8y ago

quotemstr 8y ago
So this is how the enlightenment dies.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
lkrubner 8y ago
Wouldn’t it be John Stuart Mill who is wrong? I associate him with this idea (“facts can combat lies”) more than anyone. And I think nowadays a lot of free speech advocates are beholden to Mill, whether they know it or not. Many of the best known quotes regarding the importance of free speech go back to Mill. So, I don’t think “Twitter” is the right pronoun for this headline. But I agree with the rest of the headline. Mill seems over optimistic when considering the realities of modern propaganda.
- geofft 8y ago
  It does occur to me that one thing that is too taboo to debate is whether free speech is a good ideal.
malvosenior 8y ago
What's concerning is that Apple, Google, Facebook and Spotify can (and will!) coordinate to silence voices they don't approve of. It literally doesn't matter what that voice is because the power differential of all of those companies working together vs. pretty much anything should scare us all. I'm also 100% sure Alex Jones has a larger audience today than the day before the censorship began, so from that perspective it was even a failure.
- f23oij0932 8y ago
  If Jones was truly silenced by Apple, Google, FB, and Spotify, how is it he also has a larger audience? Removing him from their list is a minor inconvenience, looks nothing like the worst acts of censorship in human history. You know how you can find Alex Jones: google.com, duckduckgo.com It was a superficial act. You seem to get that by labeling it a failure.
  - malvosenior 8y ago
    I agree it was not effective, but it's still very concerning that these companies coordinated to do this. Not every action they coordinate on will come to light like this and thus may actually be somewhat effective (think actions against regular users).
f23oij0932 8y ago
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/02/27/why-facts-dont-change-our-minds https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/02/27/why-facts-dont... https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2017/03/this-article-wont-change-your-mind/519093/ https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2017/03/this-art...
parliament32 8y ago
Wait why are we trying to combat conspiracy theories? Have we already forgotten NSA spying was a "conspiracy theory" up until a few years ago?
- dragonwriter 8y ago
  > Have we already forgotten NSA spying was a "conspiracy theory" up until a few years ago? Spying has been an overt role of the NSA since the agency was publicly revealed to exist in, IIRC, the late 1950s.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
- krapp 8y ago
  What if I told you one conspiracy being true doesn't prove all other conspiracy theories to be true? It doesn't even affect the likelihood that other conspiracy theories are true. Conspiracy theorists should be at the forefront of "combating conspiracy theories" because, ostensibly, they should care about the truth, which most conspiracy theories are not.
  - quotemstr 8y ago
    What if I told that you that while most conspiracy theories are false, giving people power to censor them would also allow them to persecute legitimate whistleblowers and investigate journalists?
    - krapp 8y ago
      What if I told you that you seem to be confusing the power held by private citizens with the power held by governments, because the former when applied by a social media platform doesn't necessarily imply a slippery slope towards the latter?
quotemstr 8y ago
The Verge isn't the first publication to make this case. It won't be the last. It's just that those making this case frequently turn into brutal dictatorships. However wrong popular ideas are, they're far less wrong than despots.
- armchair_hunter 8y ago
  And yet brutal despots like Hitler are often conspiracy theorist. Let's look at case. Hitler and the Weimar Republic as a while bought into the "stabbed in the back" myth and believed that Jews were behind all of Germany's woes, manifesting as capitalists and communists.
18pfsmt 8y ago
I don’t really care what private companies do, and I hope people are looking for alternatives (e.g. Mastodon) as a result. However, I am finding the authoritarians coming out from the left and the right to denounce basic human liberties in the name of the greater good very troubling. Thankfully, amending the US Constitution is very difficult.

19 points by deegles 8y ago

quotemstr 8y ago

So this is how the enlightenment dies.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

lkrubner 8y ago

Wouldn’t it be John Stuart Mill who is wrong? I associate him with this idea (“facts can combat lies”) more than anyone. And I think nowadays a lot of free speech advocates are beholden to Mill, whether they know it or not. Many of the best known quotes regarding the importance of free speech go back to Mill. So, I don’t think “Twitter” is the right pronoun for this headline. But I agree with the rest of the headline. Mill seems over optimistic when considering the realities of modern propaganda.

geofft 8y ago
It does occur to me that one thing that is too taboo to debate is whether free speech is a good ideal.

malvosenior 8y ago

What's concerning is that Apple, Google, Facebook and Spotify can (and will!) coordinate to silence voices they don't approve of. It literally doesn't matter what that voice is because the power differential of all of those companies working together vs. pretty much anything should scare us all. I'm also 100% sure Alex Jones has a larger audience today than the day before the censorship began, so from that perspective it was even a failure.

f23oij0932 8y ago
If Jones was truly silenced by Apple, Google, FB, and Spotify, how is it he also has a larger audience? Removing him from their list is a minor inconvenience, looks nothing like the worst acts of censorship in human history. You know how you can find Alex Jones: google.com, duckduckgo.com It was a superficial act. You seem to get that by labeling it a failure.
- malvosenior 8y ago
  I agree it was not effective, but it's still very concerning that these companies coordinated to do this. Not every action they coordinate on will come to light like this and thus may actually be somewhat effective (think actions against regular users).

f23oij0932 8y ago

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/02/27/why-facts-dont-change-our-minds https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/02/27/why-facts-dont... https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2017/03/this-article-wont-change-your-mind/519093/ https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2017/03/this-art...

parliament32 8y ago

Wait why are we trying to combat conspiracy theories? Have we already forgotten NSA spying was a "conspiracy theory" up until a few years ago?

dragonwriter 8y ago
> Have we already forgotten NSA spying was a "conspiracy theory" up until a few years ago? Spying has been an overt role of the NSA since the agency was publicly revealed to exist in, IIRC, the late 1950s.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
krapp 8y ago
What if I told you one conspiracy being true doesn't prove all other conspiracy theories to be true? It doesn't even affect the likelihood that other conspiracy theories are true. Conspiracy theorists should be at the forefront of "combating conspiracy theories" because, ostensibly, they should care about the truth, which most conspiracy theories are not.
- quotemstr 8y ago
  What if I told that you that while most conspiracy theories are false, giving people power to censor them would also allow them to persecute legitimate whistleblowers and investigate journalists?
  - krapp 8y ago
    What if I told you that you seem to be confusing the power held by private citizens with the power held by governments, because the former when applied by a social media platform doesn't necessarily imply a slippery slope towards the latter?

quotemstr 8y ago

The Verge isn't the first publication to make this case. It won't be the last. It's just that those making this case frequently turn into brutal dictatorships. However wrong popular ideas are, they're far less wrong than despots.

armchair_hunter 8y ago
And yet brutal despots like Hitler are often conspiracy theorist. Let's look at case. Hitler and the Weimar Republic as a while bought into the "stabbed in the back" myth and believed that Jews were behind all of Germany's woes, manifesting as capitalists and communists.

18pfsmt 8y ago

I don’t really care what private companies do, and I hope people are looking for alternatives (e.g. Mastodon) as a result. However, I am finding the authoritarians coming out from the left and the right to denounce basic human liberties in the name of the greater good very troubling. Thankfully, amending the US Constitution is very difficult.