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I really disagree with the thesis of this article, namely, that the decreasing number of humanities majors at elite schools is reflective of overall cultural de
by leroy_masochist 8y ago
I really disagree with the thesis of this article, namely, that the decreasing number of humanities majors at elite schools is reflective of overall cultural decline.
It's not because of cultural decline, it's because there's been a leveling of the playing field wherein competition has gotten a lot fiercer on two fronts: it's generally harder to get into elite colleges, and top-tier employers look at a broader range of schools than they used to. Put another way, being born into a wealthy family, attending Suburb Country Day and then spending a few years at boarding school is less of a tailwind for getting into Harvard than it used to be; and also, going to Harvard is less of a tailwind for getting a top-tier job than it used to be. So, the applicant pool to Harvard is less wealthy and more scrappy and pragmatic; and also, students once at Harvard make more practical decisions with regard to what they choose to study.
To give an example of an industry I know firsthand, as a (relatively) recent Goldman IBD alum I can tell you that there's been a profound shift in analyst recruiting over the last couple decades. 20 years ago, NESCAC alumni with humanities degrees were like half the analyst class and state school grads (other than Wharton) were an endangered species. Today the senior partner in your group might have a history degree from Williams, but few if any of the analysts do.
This is reflective of increased competition, not disenlightenment. And it's a good thing. The state school finance majors are better investment bankers and deserve the opportunity more.
- ricraz 8y ago"State school grads (other than Wharton)" Can't tell if ignorance or top-tier trolling.
- leroy_masochist 8y agoIf you work on Wall St and are not a Wharton grad it is your sacred duty to troll them whenever possible.
- jakeinspace 8y agoYou are probably aware but for those who do not know, Penn (University of Pennsylvania) is not a state school, Penn State is.
- rayiner 8y agoWharton is the business school at U Penn State, right?
- physicsyogi 8y agoWharton is at UPenn. Penn State's business school is Smeal.
- zamfi 8y agoU Penn != Penn State -- they are separated by many hundreds of miles of geography (and culture). U Penn is private. Penn State is public.
- umanwizard 8y agoPenn (where Wharton is) is a super-elite private university. Penn State (where Wharton is not) is an average public one.
- nostromo95 8y agoAre you saying that Penn State is an average university that happens to be public, or that among public universities it is average?
- jmsYC 8y agoTechnically, Penn State isn't a "State School" either: See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commonwealth_System_of_Higher_Education https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commonwealth_System_of_Higher_... versus the "Pennsylvania State System of Higher Education"
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- rayiner 8y agoThis is a really excellent point. My brother works at {JPM/MS/GS}. Whereas analyst classes in the whole days might have had a lot of Harvard humanities majors who did crew, recent classes are full of STEM majors. That, along with the changing demographics--there are a lot more asians and immigrants at HYPS today--are driving a shift away from the humanities. These trends are not bad things.
- Emma_Goldman 8y agoYour reply is symptomatic. In what forsaken world is a society's cultural vitality to be measured by the quality of its investment bankers? That is decadence itself.
- rayiner 8y agoFinance is one of the pillars of modern society. You need finance to bankroll everything from scientific research to wars to infrastructure development. The dominance of the British Empire, for example, was intertwined with that of its banks: https://insights.som.yale.edu/insights/can-place-built-on-global-banking-survive-britain-s-retreat-from-europe https://insights.som.yale.edu/insights/can-place-built-on-gl.... The quality of a country's investment bankers is incredibly important, and America has benefited tremendously from having a very strong banking sector. (You should watch Hamilton.)
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- leroy_masochist 8y agoIf you think that my point is that a society's cultural vitality can be measured by the quality of its investment bankers then I invite you to read the comment again. I'm not making the point you were hoping to rail against. To explicate it a bit more, I'm saying that college major decisions are mostly a result of market forces, and a higher degree of social mobility (ie, competition for who gets to be rich in the next generation) forces college students to make more pragmatic choices. Fewer philosophy majors doesn't mean that people don't care about philosophy as much anymore, it means that it's no longer reasonable for 18-year-olds to expect that they can spend four years contemplating Kierkegaard and then have a skills-heavy job waiting for them once college is over (in which they'll be taught the necessary skills via OJT), so long as they start the process from a highly-enough-ranked school.
- Itaxpica 8y agoUnfortunately, modern American capitalism has stripped from 99% of college students the ability to worry about "society's cultural vitality". It's easy to talk a big game about the choices you make and 'a forsaken world', but when you're an 18 or 19 year old trying to pick a career path that won't leave in you in debt the rest of your life the considerations become a lot more immediate and pragmatic.
- blacksmith_tb 8y agoI worry less about the broad cultural implications and more about the narrowing of experiences for students. I doubt there's any way to convince people to choose majors that will leave them saddled with crushing debt and poor prospects, but it would be an improvement to loosen up requirements and electives to encourage more academic 'shopping around', if we don't want an army of clones.
- slaymaker1907 8y agoAnother point relevant here is that the technology division at GS is by many measures the best compensated. I believe IBD technically makes more, but tech gets all sorts of perks like casual every day and regular 40 hour work weeks.
- leroy_masochist 8y agoIBD gets casual weekends
- Itaxpica 8y agoThis is a Ross Douthat piece; the man never met a concept he couldn't tie in to the supposed cultural decline of the West, however tenuously. I wish I had realized it was him before I read the article and saved myself a click.
- leroy_masochist 8y agoThat is Douthat's go-to theme, isn't it....