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While reading, I just kept thinking the old Clinton campaign quote “It’s the economy, stupid!”. In other words, we sold a generation on college being the way to

While reading, I just kept thinking the old Clinton campaign quote “It’s the economy, stupid!”. In other words, we sold a generation on college being the way to middle class or better jobs, and there aren’t many middle class or better jobs that require humanities degrees. There are no apollonites leading the charge, it’s each person individually looking at what it will take to pay down their debt everyone told them to take on, and realizing poetry and French literature won’t help the majority of the time. The post briefly adresses this but then goes off on how we need more inquiry into religious truths and less of the “Very Online”. Maybe I am possessed by Apollo and that has left me unable to understand how that would ever work. Any change that doesn’t directly adress the economic incentives will work only on those who have hereditary wealth and don’t need to care about those incentives at 18.

raverbashing 8y ago
This really seems to be one of the important problems (not the only one and I certainly wouldn't want to write a thesis here) Humanities in the 70s/80s meant your degree wouldn't cost 6 digits and you could probably find a good enough job as a teacher or in the editorial market (press/publishers/etc) or in several other places. Today those degrees costs one zero more and pays half of what it used to, and your knowledge of Latin won't be only useful for fancy coffee names, if you're lucky.
- mywittyname 8y ago
  A humanities degree in the 70s/80s also wouldn't subject you to endless contempt and disrespect.
- curun1r 8y ago
  It's really the result of a shift in mindset about education from primarily being about the benefit to society to one where the primary benefit is to the educated individual. I unfortunately can't find it anywhere, but I remember reading an interesting Rolling Stone article that traced the shift in thinking to Ronald Reagan, first during his governorship of California and eventually during his presidency. What happens when you start viewing education that way is that you start subjecting it to the laws of supply and demand. If you view an education as having hundreds of thousands of dollars of value for a graduate, you start to be able to charge hundreds of thousands of dollars for the privilege of getting that education. When it was viewed primarily as a public service that people did to become better citizens, there was more emphasis on cost controls since the state was shouldering more of the burden cost. Once that shift in mindset happened, or so posited the article, the increase in the cost of education that we've seen over the past 3 decades becomes an inevitable conclusion of schools closing the gap between what they charge and what people are willing to pay. And once education becomes this expensive, the move towards STEM and away from humanities also becomes inevitable so long as both degrees are roughly the same cost. If the humanities want to survive and thrive in today's educational environment, they need to figure out how to charge significantly less for that degree. If a humanities grad can emerge into the job market with $20k in debt compared to a STEM major that comes out with 10x that, you might see more people choosing the humanities route.
zdragnar 8y ago
The particular truths sought matter less for most jobs than the amount of research and critical thinking along the way. Sadly, as has been pointed out, the humanities have become a monoculture of thought and encourage rote initiation into the groupthink, rather than independent research and analysis. Of course, that won't get you most STEM jobs, but it would have a lot more practical application, and therefore economic value, for most other white collar jobs- at least compared to the current degrees.
- Retric 8y ago
  Having approximately zero math skills is a huge detriment across a wide range of jobs. The specific STEM program may not be that useful after collage, but the overlap is going to help when crunching numbers in Excel. By comparison while most jobs need basic proficiency reading and understanding a written language, that's also part of a STEM degree.
  - organsnyder 8y ago
    I've found that In my career as a software developer, I rarely have a need for any math beyond what I learned in high school (set theory being the one exception).
    - r_smart 8y ago
      But you're really just one small part of the E in STEM. Others use math all the time.
      - riskneutral 8y ago
        I think you mean the T in STEM.
        r_smart 8y ago
        Well, T is Technology and E is engineering. I will leave it up to any person in either category to decide where they go. My rough estimate was Sysadmin, IT support, etc is T. Electrical, Mechanical and Civil engineering are E, but I'll let software squeak in too I suppose.
ksdale 8y ago
I agree with you completely about the economics, but I think this is part of the problem, that everyone thinks it's either/or, that we have to decide when we're 18 whether we're going to be "technologists" or "humanists". There's a plausible world where everyone possessed enough "useful knowledge" to make a living and was also familiar enough with the humanities that people didn't feel the need to write articles lamenting the state of the humanities. I agree that the author's solutions don't seem like they would fundamentally change the economics of the situation. I think the biggest improvement could be had by convincing people that the humanities are important enough to spend time reading instead of watching TV all night every night.
- r_smart 8y ago
  Screeds about cultural decline will exist as long as there's a culture. If it's not this metric, it'll be another.

raverbashing 8y ago

This really seems to be one of the important problems (not the only one and I certainly wouldn't want to write a thesis here) Humanities in the 70s/80s meant your degree wouldn't cost 6 digits and you could probably find a good enough job as a teacher or in the editorial market (press/publishers/etc) or in several other places. Today those degrees costs one zero more and pays half of what it used to, and your knowledge of Latin won't be only useful for fancy coffee names, if you're lucky.

mywittyname 8y ago
A humanities degree in the 70s/80s also wouldn't subject you to endless contempt and disrespect.
curun1r 8y ago
It's really the result of a shift in mindset about education from primarily being about the benefit to society to one where the primary benefit is to the educated individual. I unfortunately can't find it anywhere, but I remember reading an interesting Rolling Stone article that traced the shift in thinking to Ronald Reagan, first during his governorship of California and eventually during his presidency. What happens when you start viewing education that way is that you start subjecting it to the laws of supply and demand. If you view an education as having hundreds of thousands of dollars of value for a graduate, you start to be able to charge hundreds of thousands of dollars for the privilege of getting that education. When it was viewed primarily as a public service that people did to become better citizens, there was more emphasis on cost controls since the state was shouldering more of the burden cost. Once that shift in mindset happened, or so posited the article, the increase in the cost of education that we've seen over the past 3 decades becomes an inevitable conclusion of schools closing the gap between what they charge and what people are willing to pay. And once education becomes this expensive, the move towards STEM and away from humanities also becomes inevitable so long as both degrees are roughly the same cost. If the humanities want to survive and thrive in today's educational environment, they need to figure out how to charge significantly less for that degree. If a humanities grad can emerge into the job market with $20k in debt compared to a STEM major that comes out with 10x that, you might see more people choosing the humanities route.

zdragnar 8y ago

The particular truths sought matter less for most jobs than the amount of research and critical thinking along the way. Sadly, as has been pointed out, the humanities have become a monoculture of thought and encourage rote initiation into the groupthink, rather than independent research and analysis. Of course, that won't get you most STEM jobs, but it would have a lot more practical application, and therefore economic value, for most other white collar jobs- at least compared to the current degrees.

Retric 8y ago
Having approximately zero math skills is a huge detriment across a wide range of jobs. The specific STEM program may not be that useful after collage, but the overlap is going to help when crunching numbers in Excel. By comparison while most jobs need basic proficiency reading and understanding a written language, that's also part of a STEM degree.
- organsnyder 8y ago
  I've found that In my career as a software developer, I rarely have a need for any math beyond what I learned in high school (set theory being the one exception).
  - r_smart 8y ago
    But you're really just one small part of the E in STEM. Others use math all the time.
    - riskneutral 8y ago
      I think you mean the T in STEM.
      - r_smart 8y ago
        Well, T is Technology and E is engineering. I will leave it up to any person in either category to decide where they go. My rough estimate was Sysadmin, IT support, etc is T. Electrical, Mechanical and Civil engineering are E, but I'll let software squeak in too I suppose.

ksdale 8y ago

I agree with you completely about the economics, but I think this is part of the problem, that everyone thinks it's either/or, that we have to decide when we're 18 whether we're going to be "technologists" or "humanists". There's a plausible world where everyone possessed enough "useful knowledge" to make a living and was also familiar enough with the humanities that people didn't feel the need to write articles lamenting the state of the humanities. I agree that the author's solutions don't seem like they would fundamentally change the economics of the situation. I think the biggest improvement could be had by convincing people that the humanities are important enough to spend time reading instead of watching TV all night every night.

r_smart 8y ago
Screeds about cultural decline will exist as long as there's a culture. If it's not this metric, it'll be another.