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> even including social benefits, the salary is 2 to 3 times less Yea... no. Especially if you factor in the cost of life. Edit: Average salary in SF for tec

> even including social benefits, the salary is 2 to 3 times less Yea... no. Especially if you factor in the cost of life. Edit: Average salary in SF for tech workers is $142k vs $56k in Paris [1]. Once adjusted for cost of living, Paris is roughly 86k$ [1]. Now, you add all the social benefits, like free health care, retirements etc. And if you have/plan on having children, you can add free education as well. All in all it's very far from 2-3 times lower. [1] https://hired.com/state-of-salaries-2018 https://hired.com/state-of-salaries-2018

sametmax 8y ago
French working for an American company. Yes.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- Voloskaya 8y ago
  Yea sure, and a French working for a Dubai-based company would make 5 times more, but that's not really representative of the average case is it?
  - sametmax 8y ago
    30% of the french salary goes to social security and retirements. American salaries are 2 to 3 times higher. The cost of life is NOT twice higher. Do the math. Also remember we are talking about tech. Not all salaries.
    - IMTDb 8y ago
      > American salaries are 2 to 3 times higher. Cash in hand is 2 to 3 times higher, but compensation is not. You need to include benefits such as company car, extra holidays (europe starts with 20 + unlimited sick days), 13th month (get paid twice on december), food stamps (around 8€ / working day), ... And stock options can be part of the package on both side of the ocean. You should value them similarly. > The cost of life is NOT twice higher. Rent is around twice higher in SF, and contributes for a significant portion of your total expense. Other expenses (leisure, culture, ...) is indeed more slightly more expensive in SF but not by a factor x2.
sol_remmy 8y ago
Absolutely. The free healthcare alone makes up for the lower salaries in France. My friend is diabetic and in poor health, he would go broke if he lived in America and not Europe.
- qaq 8y ago
  ? if he/she was SW Eng. in SV ?
- sametmax 8y ago
  Not in tech. The difference it tech salary is bigger than for other fields. It's unusually low in France, and usually big in the US.
- cm2012 8y ago
  I mean, you can pay for amazing healthcare for yourself for 800 a month (10k a year) or a family (15k a year) in the US. And if you work for a big company they cover ablot of this. It's pretty easy to calculate in salaries, and doesn't bridge the gap between countries.
  - duxup 8y ago
    I'm not sure those "amazing healthcare" numbers are correct...
baud147258 8y ago
Man, I should really try to get that 13k € raise out of my employer! Just to point that average does not mean that every tech worker get that. And I'd bet that in Paris 56K$ is either very senior pay grade or management. You can also add, among the benefits, the good network of public transport (even if some lines are overloaded).
- Voloskaya 8y ago
  > Just to point that average does not mean that every tech worker get that. Well, no. That's the point of having an average. Would be good to have stats for median salary as well
- Jacqued 8y ago
  In my experience, €50k is pretty much middle-of-the road for software developers. That's what I had after ~2 years experience. Beginners get 40k out of college. Freelancing is also a good option, with daily rates ~400-700€ depending on experience, you can make a much better living than a regular employee.
  - vladvasiliu 8y ago
    Bear in mind that that would be the rate charged to the client. In France you'll have to actually have a company of some sort and then you'll get some form of salary (either dividends or actual salary). The ballpark for your actual cash in hand, assuming no other costs for the company, would be whatever you charge divided by two (social security isn't actually free). Of course, some things can be expensed, which is a huge advantage, for example a company car or motorbike, a laptop, etc). But it's not entirely free if you use them on your personal time, theoretically you have to pay income tax on some of the object's value. So the numbers are, considering 220 working days a year (which is probably optimistic, because you have to budget some days to find and develop new leads, plus vacation, sick days, etc): 400 € / day = 88 000 / year => 44-45 000 after tax Another thing to bear in mind is landlords and banks have a strong preference to rent / lend to people with a stable, long-term contract (CDI). As a freelancer, especially in the beginning, you'll probably encounter quite a few of them who won't want to do business with you. Plus, being a foreigner won't help. Source: I'm doing the freelance thing.
runT1ME 8y ago
A couple things... salary is a small part of overall compensation. A 10% or more cash bonus is the minimum as well as some equity (which may or may not be worth something). Health care is also free for most tech workers or if not free, a blip on the radar. I think I pay $40 a month for amazing healthcare (and I'm in SoCal not in the Bay).

sametmax 8y ago

French working for an American company. Yes.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
Voloskaya 8y ago
Yea sure, and a French working for a Dubai-based company would make 5 times more, but that's not really representative of the average case is it?
- sametmax 8y ago
  30% of the french salary goes to social security and retirements. American salaries are 2 to 3 times higher. The cost of life is NOT twice higher. Do the math. Also remember we are talking about tech. Not all salaries.
  - IMTDb 8y ago
    > American salaries are 2 to 3 times higher. Cash in hand is 2 to 3 times higher, but compensation is not. You need to include benefits such as company car, extra holidays (europe starts with 20 + unlimited sick days), 13th month (get paid twice on december), food stamps (around 8€ / working day), ... And stock options can be part of the package on both side of the ocean. You should value them similarly. > The cost of life is NOT twice higher. Rent is around twice higher in SF, and contributes for a significant portion of your total expense. Other expenses (leisure, culture, ...) is indeed more slightly more expensive in SF but not by a factor x2.

sol_remmy 8y ago

Absolutely. The free healthcare alone makes up for the lower salaries in France. My friend is diabetic and in poor health, he would go broke if he lived in America and not Europe.

qaq 8y ago
? if he/she was SW Eng. in SV ?
sametmax 8y ago
Not in tech. The difference it tech salary is bigger than for other fields. It's unusually low in France, and usually big in the US.
cm2012 8y ago
I mean, you can pay for amazing healthcare for yourself for 800 a month (10k a year) or a family (15k a year) in the US. And if you work for a big company they cover ablot of this. It's pretty easy to calculate in salaries, and doesn't bridge the gap between countries.
- duxup 8y ago
  I'm not sure those "amazing healthcare" numbers are correct...

baud147258 8y ago

Man, I should really try to get that 13k € raise out of my employer! Just to point that average does not mean that every tech worker get that. And I'd bet that in Paris 56K$ is either very senior pay grade or management. You can also add, among the benefits, the good network of public transport (even if some lines are overloaded).

Voloskaya 8y ago
> Just to point that average does not mean that every tech worker get that. Well, no. That's the point of having an average. Would be good to have stats for median salary as well
Jacqued 8y ago
In my experience, €50k is pretty much middle-of-the road for software developers. That's what I had after ~2 years experience. Beginners get 40k out of college. Freelancing is also a good option, with daily rates ~400-700€ depending on experience, you can make a much better living than a regular employee.
- vladvasiliu 8y ago
  Bear in mind that that would be the rate charged to the client. In France you'll have to actually have a company of some sort and then you'll get some form of salary (either dividends or actual salary). The ballpark for your actual cash in hand, assuming no other costs for the company, would be whatever you charge divided by two (social security isn't actually free). Of course, some things can be expensed, which is a huge advantage, for example a company car or motorbike, a laptop, etc). But it's not entirely free if you use them on your personal time, theoretically you have to pay income tax on some of the object's value. So the numbers are, considering 220 working days a year (which is probably optimistic, because you have to budget some days to find and develop new leads, plus vacation, sick days, etc): 400 € / day = 88 000 / year => 44-45 000 after tax Another thing to bear in mind is landlords and banks have a strong preference to rent / lend to people with a stable, long-term contract (CDI). As a freelancer, especially in the beginning, you'll probably encounter quite a few of them who won't want to do business with you. Plus, being a foreigner won't help. Source: I'm doing the freelance thing.

runT1ME 8y ago

A couple things... salary is a small part of overall compensation. A 10% or more cash bonus is the minimum as well as some equity (which may or may not be worth something). Health care is also free for most tech workers or if not free, a blip on the radar. I think I pay $40 a month for amazing healthcare (and I'm in SoCal not in the Bay).