5 ms·

This study was flawed from the start. They asked people if they were ever “diagnosed” with depression when there is no clear cause of depression. Depression can

This study was flawed from the start. They asked people if they were ever “diagnosed” with depression when there is no clear cause of depression. Depression can be lifelong, short term situational, caused by drugs, etc. It also relied on self reported physical activity! Ha! It is worthless to extract anything regarding mental heath and exercise from this study.

markroseman 8y ago
I'd consider the value to be motivational ammunition for an intervention that generally has few downsides and multiple possible benefits for the person affected. Your point about stigma does counterbalance that somewhat. In other words, would I put the overview on the coffee table in my wife's office (she's a psychiatrist) for her patients to see? Yes.
- Kyrztyn 8y ago
  They did not establish causality in the study, yet you would put it out for sick people already stigmatized and thinking they are “lazy”, “just need to get out of bed”, etc as another burden for them to carry? Are you a sadist? Let me give you a personal anecdote. I suffered depression and anxiety and fatigue for years. I tried to be active but it made me feel worse. Turns out I had late onset partial biotinidase deficiency. I take biotin, my depression and anxiety are gone and now I can work out like a normal person. What good does this study do for people like me and the probably hundreds of thousands of people like me? I would in fact it harms people like me because it lays a simple cure over a complex and diverse issue.
  - markroseman 8y ago
    In this or anything else, exercise isn't suggested as a cure. Almost without exception, the people she sees are looking for ways to help move themselves forward. By the time they get here, they realize (and it's part of the education that goes with the practice) that mental illness is extremely complex, not every treatment helps everyone, and there's no single magic bullet. And yes, serious metabolic workups are a big part of the practice. So while I appreciate your perspective, I take issue with the claim that (in this context) it is suggesting laziness as a cause for their illness, or sadism on my part.
    - Kyrztyn 8y ago
      I’d be interested if your wife tests for Biotinidase Deficiency...? There are no “serious metabolic work ups” for mental health. Sure, they test thyroid, maybe iron and B12 if you press them. But beyond that? I am telling you, as a person who suffered from suicidal depression, that seeing a pamphlet like that in the past would make me feel worse, not better. But why listen to me? I am only the patient.
      - textor 8y ago
        You're being petty, rude and irrational. I expect there to be more issues than biotinidase deficiency with you. Do you have any data about the prevalence of this disease? Quick search points to something below 1 in 100 thousand. This means there's about 3000 sufferers like you in the entire country. Statistically speaking, it's utterly absurd for you to throw accusations or demand some special attention from the author of a paper that reports robust positive effects of exercise based on 1.2 million subjects. Take your biotin or something and pipe down.
        Kyrztyn 8y ago
        That is the problem with quick searches, they are usually incomplete. 1) While Biotinidase Deficiency is rare, Partial Biotinidase Deficiency is not as rare. Combining the two the incidence it is 1 in 61,000 2) There are no good statistics for late onset partial biotinidase deficiency. And they do not know why it happens. This is what I am diagnosed with. 3) Combine even a minimal decrease in biotinidase deficiency with a slight holocarboxylase synthetase deficiency and you can look like you have Biotinidase Deficiency when your enzyme assay is not that low. This can be cured with biotin as well. So how many is it now? 3000 or 300,000? 4) yes, there is more than BTD Deficiency that is wrong with me. I was stigmatized by doctors and psychiatrists for 25 years because all they saw was my mental illness. If it was not for Dr. Barry Wolf I would be dead. 5) so how many other causes of depression are there that do not get fixed with working out? 6) One of the people who authored this study is linked to Spring Health. Whose motto is “We use #data to help you choose the right #antidepressant”. My point is that mood disorders are complex, and studies like this, that simplify mood disorders, are damaging to the people who have them. The company attached to this research is promising AI to find ways to help people’s mental health when there are currently no clear causes or treatments. I wonder if their app will tell people to get their B12 checked or send them to a doctor for Prozac when the jogging dies not work... It’s vapor ware and they put out these studies to help them seem like they are not.

markroseman 8y ago

I'd consider the value to be motivational ammunition for an intervention that generally has few downsides and multiple possible benefits for the person affected. Your point about stigma does counterbalance that somewhat. In other words, would I put the overview on the coffee table in my wife's office (she's a psychiatrist) for her patients to see? Yes.

Kyrztyn 8y ago
They did not establish causality in the study, yet you would put it out for sick people already stigmatized and thinking they are “lazy”, “just need to get out of bed”, etc as another burden for them to carry? Are you a sadist? Let me give you a personal anecdote. I suffered depression and anxiety and fatigue for years. I tried to be active but it made me feel worse. Turns out I had late onset partial biotinidase deficiency. I take biotin, my depression and anxiety are gone and now I can work out like a normal person. What good does this study do for people like me and the probably hundreds of thousands of people like me? I would in fact it harms people like me because it lays a simple cure over a complex and diverse issue.
- markroseman 8y ago
  In this or anything else, exercise isn't suggested as a cure. Almost without exception, the people she sees are looking for ways to help move themselves forward. By the time they get here, they realize (and it's part of the education that goes with the practice) that mental illness is extremely complex, not every treatment helps everyone, and there's no single magic bullet. And yes, serious metabolic workups are a big part of the practice. So while I appreciate your perspective, I take issue with the claim that (in this context) it is suggesting laziness as a cause for their illness, or sadism on my part.
  - Kyrztyn 8y ago
    I’d be interested if your wife tests for Biotinidase Deficiency...? There are no “serious metabolic work ups” for mental health. Sure, they test thyroid, maybe iron and B12 if you press them. But beyond that? I am telling you, as a person who suffered from suicidal depression, that seeing a pamphlet like that in the past would make me feel worse, not better. But why listen to me? I am only the patient.
    - textor 8y ago
      You're being petty, rude and irrational. I expect there to be more issues than biotinidase deficiency with you. Do you have any data about the prevalence of this disease? Quick search points to something below 1 in 100 thousand. This means there's about 3000 sufferers like you in the entire country. Statistically speaking, it's utterly absurd for you to throw accusations or demand some special attention from the author of a paper that reports robust positive effects of exercise based on 1.2 million subjects. Take your biotin or something and pipe down.
      - Kyrztyn 8y ago
        That is the problem with quick searches, they are usually incomplete. 1) While Biotinidase Deficiency is rare, Partial Biotinidase Deficiency is not as rare. Combining the two the incidence it is 1 in 61,000 2) There are no good statistics for late onset partial biotinidase deficiency. And they do not know why it happens. This is what I am diagnosed with. 3) Combine even a minimal decrease in biotinidase deficiency with a slight holocarboxylase synthetase deficiency and you can look like you have Biotinidase Deficiency when your enzyme assay is not that low. This can be cured with biotin as well. So how many is it now? 3000 or 300,000? 4) yes, there is more than BTD Deficiency that is wrong with me. I was stigmatized by doctors and psychiatrists for 25 years because all they saw was my mental illness. If it was not for Dr. Barry Wolf I would be dead. 5) so how many other causes of depression are there that do not get fixed with working out? 6) One of the people who authored this study is linked to Spring Health. Whose motto is “We use #data to help you choose the right #antidepressant”. My point is that mood disorders are complex, and studies like this, that simplify mood disorders, are damaging to the people who have them. The company attached to this research is promising AI to find ways to help people’s mental health when there are currently no clear causes or treatments. I wonder if their app will tell people to get their B12 checked or send them to a doctor for Prozac when the jogging dies not work... It’s vapor ware and they put out these studies to help them seem like they are not.