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Ok, so a lot of people here are comparing the french Startup scene to what it was before. I understand why, but it's misleading. Yes, compared to what it was b
by sametmax 8y ago
Ok, so a lot of people here are comparing the french Startup scene to what it was before. I understand why, but it's misleading.
Yes, compared to what it was before, it's booming. But it was ridiculously bad before.
However compared to what's happening in the US, it's still lagging.
Innovation is alright, however investment and risk taking are nowhere close to the American standard. It's still very meh.
The culture of flexibility is starting to sink in, but again, you will face the french "lutte des classes" legacy, with old style hierarchies and management structures.
And of course, even including social benefits, the salary is 2 to 3 times less than in the valley. But they will publish crazy requirements in job offers.
On the other hand, working in France is sweet. Paris is great city, and the life style is super nice. And while French people can have a pretty negative attitude, they won't tell you everything is ok or doable before even checking they can, or be artificially friendly to the point it's weird. All in all, it's a lot less pressure.
Best bet is to actually live in France, but remotely work for an American company.
Plus you can buy actual tomatoes and not red plastic balls.
- Jdam 8y ago> the salary is 2 to 3 times less so it’s negative?
- mtremsal 8y agoRule of thumb is that half the salary amount (e.g. 120k USD to 60k EUR) in Paris will get you about the same or better quality of life as you have in NYC or SF, once you account for differences in how real estate, taxes, healthcare, and retirement work.
- oblio 8y agoFor the retirement bit, that's assuming that France's 110% of GDP debt or so won't balloon in the future and pensions won't be slashed by the time your retire.
- boubiyeah 8y agoYeah... I wouldn't count on retirement too much.
- sametmax 8y agoNope. I currently work for an American company. They pay me 144k euros (before taxes). This include retirements and social security. Same job in France would be 65k if I negotiate REALLY well.
- sametmax 8y agoI don't know any dev doing 120K USD (105k EURS)__as a salary in Paris. I doubt there are many. If you want to make this figures, you need to be a freelancer, which means no job safety, looking for clients, and paying for social security and requirements yourself. French salaries for dev are in the 30k to 70k depending of your level. 70k is rare. You need to be good. To be able to negotiate or have a rare skill. However 120K USD is not rare in the US. I had proposals for 220k.
- Voloskaya 8y agoNo, he is saying that if you make 120k USD in SF, you can have the same quality of life with 60k euros in Paris, not that 120k$ == 60k euros.
- yardie 8y ago$120k in SF is considered poverty level. And 60k Euros in Paris is nowhere close. 60k means you don't just get by you actually can live. I know because I have.
- sametmax 8y agoYes, you will be paid much less. But you will stay less hours at the office as well. And you'll get way more time off. Also you get to go to the Fontainebleau forest, eat to the "Pates vivantes" in the 9e, and can just walk to buy stuff most of the time. Or roller skate.
- ThePadawan 8y agoI believe they were unhelpfully commenting on your grammar. They read "2 to 3 times less" as "-200% to -300%" instead of "33%-50%".
- sametmax 8y agoAh :) Well, french and all that.
- Voloskaya 8y ago> even including social benefits, the salary is 2 to 3 times less Yea... no. Especially if you factor in the cost of life. Edit: Average salary in SF for tech workers is $142k vs $56k in Paris [1]. Once adjusted for cost of living, Paris is roughly 86k$ [1]. Now, you add all the social benefits, like free health care, retirements etc. And if you have/plan on having children, you can add free education as well. All in all it's very far from 2-3 times lower. [1] https://hired.com/state-of-salaries-2018 https://hired.com/state-of-salaries-2018
- sametmax 8y agoFrench working for an American company. Yes.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- Voloskaya 8y agoYea sure, and a French working for a Dubai-based company would make 5 times more, but that's not really representative of the average case is it?
- sametmax 8y ago30% of the french salary goes to social security and retirements. American salaries are 2 to 3 times higher. The cost of life is NOT twice higher. Do the math. Also remember we are talking about tech. Not all salaries.
- IMTDb 8y ago> American salaries are 2 to 3 times higher. Cash in hand is 2 to 3 times higher, but compensation is not. You need to include benefits such as company car, extra holidays (europe starts with 20 + unlimited sick days), 13th month (get paid twice on december), food stamps (around 8€ / working day), ... And stock options can be part of the package on both side of the ocean. You should value them similarly. > The cost of life is NOT twice higher. Rent is around twice higher in SF, and contributes for a significant portion of your total expense. Other expenses (leisure, culture, ...) is indeed more slightly more expensive in SF but not by a factor x2.
- rhaps0dy 8y ago>Plus you can buy actual tomatoes and not red plastic balls. That's an important perk.
- dawhizkid 8y agoCA has amazing farmers markets.
- tom_mellior 8y agoAnd in Paris too you need to look around for a place that will sell you good tomatoes. An average supermarket will just have the tasteless red water balls from the Netherlands, at least for 11 months out of the year.
- raarts 8y ago> red water balls from the Netherlands This was true in the nineties, but due to dropping revenues (especially in Germany) has been corrected by Dutch farmers since then. Dutch tomatoes are of the highest quality now.
- tom_mellior 8y agoI was writing from repeated recent experience, the last from a week ago when I didn't have time to go to a better place to get tomatoes. Your mileage or taste may vary.
- chrisper 8y ago>but remotely work for an American company How can one find something like this?
- sametmax 8y agoYou apply to any american job like you are next to them. And once they get interested, you negociate. You will have a way higher fail rate than usual. But they really, really need good devs, and they are getting more rare and expensive, so some agree.
- Chiminh 8y agoDepending on the preferences Paris can be a pretty poor city or the best city in the world. I clearly fall into the first category. Living 'intramuros' is very expensive when adding the fact that salaries are not on part with major tech hubs. The city is dirty, very polluted (2nd worst area in Europe by air pollution after Moscow - don't have the reference link though), people are rude, and everything so cramped it makes you feel claustrophobic.
- sametmax 8y agoAgreed. But I'll take Paris over the valley any day.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- ousta 8y agoPlease give me any example of a major world city where living 'intramuros' is cheap lol.... Salaries are on part with major tech hubs (NYC OR SF are WAY MORE EXPENSIVE than paris and salaries match at the end) Paris is the 15th most polluted city in europe and not the 2nd... "People are rude" - is a generalization and racism toward parisians. plus if you feel like everyone is rude start asking yourself some questions man.... Plus in terms of dirty you never lived in SF or NEW York or any part of China I guess.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- sametmax 8y agoTo any american, people in Paris will feel rude. To any russian, they will feel over friendly. It's not racism, it's just social expectations clashing. But yeah, try to live in Manhattan...
- archagon 8y agoHa—as a Russian-American, I guess that explains why it felt just right!
- dawhizkid 8y agoEhh I just left Paris after visiting for a few days. Not that I bought fruits and veggies there, but I found the restaurant scene to be very average. The bistros are all indistinguishable from each other, pretty expensive (probably 25 euros for an entree and a drink), and very mediocre quality. I know you were talking about grocery store produce but a CA area farmers market is probably higher quality than an analogous one there too.
- archagon 8y agoI’ve had way tastier fruits and veggies at a random Parisian street market than at any of the Bay Area farmers markets I’ve been to.