4 ms·

>The domino thing wasn't that crazy. I wonder if that implies that the world should've gone full communist. That the attempts to stop that was just delaying th

by vesak 8y ago

>The domino thing wasn't that crazy. I wonder if that implies that the world should've gone full communist. That the attempts to stop that was just delaying the inevitable, even though the delay seems very successful right now. I wonder if socialism would've ended up as authoritarian as it did if it hadn't been fought like it was.

selestify 8y ago
The less authoritarian states, such as Allende's Chile, did not end up surviving for long. Can't help but wonder if there is a survivorship bias, wherein only the most vicious and brutal communist states could survive external interference.
- aalleavitch 8y ago
  As evidenced by the fact that the most successful modern socialist states are in Europe, I believe this is the case. Those who could make their social welfare programs coexist with aggressive Western attitudes have thrived.
  - ptr 8y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_socialist_states https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_socialist_states As far as I can see, there are two countries in Europe on that list: Portugal and Greece.
    - aalleavitch 8y ago
      If you use a definition of socialism that excludes the notion of a mixed system, yes. I would say that precisely that is the form of authoritarian socialism that doesn’t work.
  - vesak 8y ago
    Which states in Europe do you think are socialist?
    - baud147258 8y ago
      I think if you use a broad enough definition of socialist, you'd have most of Europe. In France the socialist party was in power until last year, for example.
      - cryptonector 8y ago
        By such a definition then the U.S. is socialist too, just a bit less. Good news socialists!
- vesak 8y ago
  >The less authoritarian states, such as Allende's Chile, did not end up surviving for long. Wasn't Allende's Chile pretty much brought down by external forces, i.e. CIA? Calling it survivorship bias is a bit premature if the said countries are antagonised by the most powerful nation on the planet :)
  - cryptonector 8y ago
    No. The U.S. was definitely for Pinochet's coup, but on the ground it was all Pinochet. (If anything, Pinochet was less bloody than others because of U.S. pressure.)
cryptonector 8y ago
Consider Venezuela. There was no civil war there (unlike Russia immediately after the October revolution, and unlike China before and after WWII). There was no foreign power intervention (unlike Korea, Vietnam). Yet Venezuela is authoritarian. (There's also Nazi Germany. The Nazis were socialists, really, and they also had no civil war and no foreign power intervention, and that ended pretty badly too.) I think the answer to your question is: yes, yes, of course it would have. Now, you might point to post-war Western European socialism, but there we have a number of stabilizing factors (e.g., NATO, U.S. troops on the ground) limiting the freedom of socialist politicians to be as extreme as they might want to. As a result, post-war Western European socialism mostly means just high taxes and large welfare states. Generally, socialism outside post-war Western Europe ends badly. There have been left-wing presidents in Brazil and others where it didn't end badly, but they didn't impose socialism -- they ruled more like Western European social democrats, not like Chavez, Castro, or Maduro.

by vesak 8y ago

selestify 8y ago

The less authoritarian states, such as Allende's Chile, did not end up surviving for long. Can't help but wonder if there is a survivorship bias, wherein only the most vicious and brutal communist states could survive external interference.

aalleavitch 8y ago
As evidenced by the fact that the most successful modern socialist states are in Europe, I believe this is the case. Those who could make their social welfare programs coexist with aggressive Western attitudes have thrived.
- ptr 8y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_socialist_states https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_socialist_states As far as I can see, there are two countries in Europe on that list: Portugal and Greece.
  - aalleavitch 8y ago
    If you use a definition of socialism that excludes the notion of a mixed system, yes. I would say that precisely that is the form of authoritarian socialism that doesn’t work.
- vesak 8y ago
  Which states in Europe do you think are socialist?
  - baud147258 8y ago
    I think if you use a broad enough definition of socialist, you'd have most of Europe. In France the socialist party was in power until last year, for example.
    - cryptonector 8y ago
      By such a definition then the U.S. is socialist too, just a bit less. Good news socialists!
vesak 8y ago
>The less authoritarian states, such as Allende's Chile, did not end up surviving for long. Wasn't Allende's Chile pretty much brought down by external forces, i.e. CIA? Calling it survivorship bias is a bit premature if the said countries are antagonised by the most powerful nation on the planet :)
- cryptonector 8y ago
  No. The U.S. was definitely for Pinochet's coup, but on the ground it was all Pinochet. (If anything, Pinochet was less bloody than others because of U.S. pressure.)

cryptonector 8y ago

Consider Venezuela. There was no civil war there (unlike Russia immediately after the October revolution, and unlike China before and after WWII). There was no foreign power intervention (unlike Korea, Vietnam). Yet Venezuela is authoritarian. (There's also Nazi Germany. The Nazis were socialists, really, and they also had no civil war and no foreign power intervention, and that ended pretty badly too.) I think the answer to your question is: yes, yes, of course it would have. Now, you might point to post-war Western European socialism, but there we have a number of stabilizing factors (e.g., NATO, U.S. troops on the ground) limiting the freedom of socialist politicians to be as extreme as they might want to. As a result, post-war Western European socialism mostly means just high taxes and large welfare states. Generally, socialism outside post-war Western Europe ends badly. There have been left-wing presidents in Brazil and others where it didn't end badly, but they didn't impose socialism -- they ruled more like Western European social democrats, not like Chavez, Castro, or Maduro.