7 ms·

The domino thing wasn't that crazy. China, Korea, Vietnam, Cambodia. Then what? Philippines? Thailand? Of course, the right answer was that we couldn't tak

The domino thing wasn't that crazy. China, Korea, Vietnam, Cambodia. Then what? Philippines? Thailand? Of course, the right answer was that we couldn't take on all of those burdens, not even one, really, not for long. But in the aftermath of WWII, I think it's not surprising that this wasn't understood.

s_m_t 8y ago
Everyone seems to also forget the then recent success of the Korean war. At risk of confusing what was known then and what is known now, well, look at NK vs SK today. Vietnam under socialist control turned out to be not anywhere as extreme but it would have been hard to guess that right during China's "great leap forward". Of course, things didn't turn out as well for neighboring Cambodia.
- orbifold 8y ago
  Well the US history in Cambodia is as messy as the one in Vietnam. I don’t recall all the details but the Khmer Rouge was not inevitable without US intervention.
- eadmund 8y ago
  > Vietnam under socialist control turned out to be not anywhere as extreme Not as extreme as North Korea? No, but even the Soviet Union wasn't as extreme as North Korea. The subjugation of South Vietnam under North Vietnam was pretty brutal though — the Boat People didn't spring from nothing.
  - baud147258 8y ago
    I remember working with a Boat People on my first job. He was a cool guy, but we never talked about Vietnam.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
AnthonyMouse 8y ago
> But in the aftermath of WWII, I think it's not surprising that this wasn't understood. Then what's our excuse this time?
- mmjaa 8y ago
  >Then what's our excuse this time? There's money in them-thar hills (of Afghanistan). War money: your nation can't survive without it.
  - AnthonyMouse 8y ago
    > War money: your nation can't survive without it. Especially when most of the money, and all the future interest on the new public debt, comes from the domestic taxpayer. Imagine all the trouble the average citizen would cause if they could spend their own money on scientific pursuits, entrepreneurship and educating their children instead of debt service. It would practically be a revolution in the making.
- cryptonector 8y ago
  As to Afghanistan? I don't know. It made sense to go in to fetch Bin Laden, but not to do any nation-building.
  - NegativeLatency 8y ago
    Did it though? At the end of the day he’s just another bad guy. Think about all the people there who view the US poorly because of our actions there. Not sure killing one person really makes up for that.
    - roenxi 8y ago
      Ignoring even that, in the end when he was caught/executed, it was in Pakistan by a small team of operatives. So in hindsight, why was there an army in Afghanistan? 15/19 of the terrorists involved were former Saudi nationals, so it isn't like the Afghans were obviously churning out radicals. Whole thing was bizarre.
vesak 8y ago
>The domino thing wasn't that crazy. I wonder if that implies that the world should've gone full communist. That the attempts to stop that was just delaying the inevitable, even though the delay seems very successful right now. I wonder if socialism would've ended up as authoritarian as it did if it hadn't been fought like it was.
- selestify 8y ago
  The less authoritarian states, such as Allende's Chile, did not end up surviving for long. Can't help but wonder if there is a survivorship bias, wherein only the most vicious and brutal communist states could survive external interference.
  - aalleavitch 8y ago
    As evidenced by the fact that the most successful modern socialist states are in Europe, I believe this is the case. Those who could make their social welfare programs coexist with aggressive Western attitudes have thrived.
    - ptr 8y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_socialist_states https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_socialist_states As far as I can see, there are two countries in Europe on that list: Portugal and Greece.
      - aalleavitch 8y ago
        If you use a definition of socialism that excludes the notion of a mixed system, yes. I would say that precisely that is the form of authoritarian socialism that doesn’t work.
    - vesak 8y ago
      Which states in Europe do you think are socialist?
barking 8y ago
It wasn't crazy but if you go by the Ken Burns documentary series it was also wrong. America abandoned its principles to support French colonialism, ironically for fear that France would otherwise ally with the Soviets and thus pushed the Viet Minh firmly into the communist camp. The Viet Minh were Vietnamese nationalists first and foremost and showed no appetite for exporting communism post the Vietnam war.

s_m_t 8y ago

Everyone seems to also forget the then recent success of the Korean war. At risk of confusing what was known then and what is known now, well, look at NK vs SK today. Vietnam under socialist control turned out to be not anywhere as extreme but it would have been hard to guess that right during China's "great leap forward". Of course, things didn't turn out as well for neighboring Cambodia.

orbifold 8y ago
Well the US history in Cambodia is as messy as the one in Vietnam. I don’t recall all the details but the Khmer Rouge was not inevitable without US intervention.
eadmund 8y ago
> Vietnam under socialist control turned out to be not anywhere as extreme Not as extreme as North Korea? No, but even the Soviet Union wasn't as extreme as North Korea. The subjugation of South Vietnam under North Vietnam was pretty brutal though — the Boat People didn't spring from nothing.
- baud147258 8y ago
  I remember working with a Boat People on my first job. He was a cool guy, but we never talked about Vietnam.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

AnthonyMouse 8y ago

> But in the aftermath of WWII, I think it's not surprising that this wasn't understood. Then what's our excuse this time?

mmjaa 8y ago
>Then what's our excuse this time? There's money in them-thar hills (of Afghanistan). War money: your nation can't survive without it.
- AnthonyMouse 8y ago
  > War money: your nation can't survive without it. Especially when most of the money, and all the future interest on the new public debt, comes from the domestic taxpayer. Imagine all the trouble the average citizen would cause if they could spend their own money on scientific pursuits, entrepreneurship and educating their children instead of debt service. It would practically be a revolution in the making.
cryptonector 8y ago
As to Afghanistan? I don't know. It made sense to go in to fetch Bin Laden, but not to do any nation-building.
- NegativeLatency 8y ago
  Did it though? At the end of the day he’s just another bad guy. Think about all the people there who view the US poorly because of our actions there. Not sure killing one person really makes up for that.
  - roenxi 8y ago
    Ignoring even that, in the end when he was caught/executed, it was in Pakistan by a small team of operatives. So in hindsight, why was there an army in Afghanistan? 15/19 of the terrorists involved were former Saudi nationals, so it isn't like the Afghans were obviously churning out radicals. Whole thing was bizarre.

vesak 8y ago

>The domino thing wasn't that crazy. I wonder if that implies that the world should've gone full communist. That the attempts to stop that was just delaying the inevitable, even though the delay seems very successful right now. I wonder if socialism would've ended up as authoritarian as it did if it hadn't been fought like it was.

selestify 8y ago
The less authoritarian states, such as Allende's Chile, did not end up surviving for long. Can't help but wonder if there is a survivorship bias, wherein only the most vicious and brutal communist states could survive external interference.
- aalleavitch 8y ago
  As evidenced by the fact that the most successful modern socialist states are in Europe, I believe this is the case. Those who could make their social welfare programs coexist with aggressive Western attitudes have thrived.
  - ptr 8y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_socialist_states https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_socialist_states As far as I can see, there are two countries in Europe on that list: Portugal and Greece.
    - aalleavitch 8y ago
      If you use a definition of socialism that excludes the notion of a mixed system, yes. I would say that precisely that is the form of authoritarian socialism that doesn’t work.
  - vesak 8y ago
    Which states in Europe do you think are socialist?

barking 8y ago

It wasn't crazy but if you go by the Ken Burns documentary series it was also wrong. America abandoned its principles to support French colonialism, ironically for fear that France would otherwise ally with the Soviets and thus pushed the Viet Minh firmly into the communist camp. The Viet Minh were Vietnamese nationalists first and foremost and showed no appetite for exporting communism post the Vietnam war.