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It seems to me that these tariffs really do make sense regardless of political orientation. The big difference between Chinese and American labor is that we pla

It seems to me that these tariffs really do make sense regardless of political orientation. The big difference between Chinese and American labor is that we place a much higher standard on human and worker rights. Chinese workers manufacture e.g. $1000 iPhones earning literally a few dollars a day, living in on-site dormitories, all the while surrounded by suicide nets to try to deter the frequent suicides. That's obviously not a great situation. Yet we, as in American companies, vastly incentivize such systems by shipping trillions of dollars worth of production to China. So we pride ourselves on more humane standards, yet send trillions of dollars to the lowest common denominator on labor that's a hair's breadth above slavery? This never made any sense to me. I think free trade is a great idea when nations are comparably developed with comparable values. But when you have asymmetric value systems, you just end up greatly rewarding the lowest common denominator while hurting the nations that place a greater value on labor rights. Anyhow, glad to see the effect of these tariffs is almost certainly going to end up favoring American interests, and perhaps even the Chinese people as well if I can be allowed a bit of optimism.

kenmicklas 8y ago
> That's obviously not a great situation. Yet we, as in American companies, vastly incentivize such systems by shipping trillions of dollars worth of production to China. So we pride ourselves on more humane standards, yet send trillions of dollars to the lowest common denominator on labor that's a hair's breadth above slavery? This never made any sense to me. That's because American capitalists _don't_ value human and workers rights. And to a large degree, the American labor movement doesn't either - as long as it can escape the oppression of the American capitalists at home and have cheap consumer goods as a result of the export of capital to poorer countries. The only ways to alleviate this within the capitalist system is to either decrease the mobility of capital, or increase the mobility of labor (i.e. immigration). Unfortunately, neither of these are in the immediate interests of the American working class.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
throw272109 8y ago
> The big difference between Chinese and American labor is that we place a much higher standard on human and worker rights. I used to believe this until I read up on how prisoners in the US basically work like indentured servants for pennies. There's a few news articles and occasional "anger" at the situation, but I read about it 15+ years ago and nothing has changed. It's not like the average Chinese person is against human and worker rights. If you talk to them, of course they will say they value it. It's just those in power don't care. And those that do care, don't have the power to change anything.
- aeternus 8y ago
  Most of the prisoner work programs are optional. Same with foreign labor, yes working conditions are not optimal and there are improvements that could be made. However having an an alternative option is almost always better than not having that option. This problem may be best solved by actually making it easier for companies to participate in prisoner work-release programs, thereby increasing competition and driving up prisoner wages.
throwaway34241 8y ago
Even though I disagree I think these are reasonable arguments. I'd like to present what I think is the other side of the case: First regarding wages. I think Foxconn is around $2.50/hr. The suicide rate is actually lower than the national average I think, they are just the size of a small city so it's likely to happen (from mental illness). The nets seem to be them fighting bad publicity in a tone-deaf way that also generates bad publicity (and hopefully saves some people too). Of course, Foxconn is famous and gets more scrutiny. I'm sure other factories in China are worse. But, these people are probably not quitting their high-paying jobs to work in a factory. If they lose these jobs, they will probably not be better off! As the economy has been developing, wages have been going up in China, and more factory jobs have been moving to Bangladesh, Vietnam etc. But this has been due to economic development in China, not a trade war. I've only been talking about if it hurts the Chinese factory worker so far. But let's look at America. The Chinese factory worker is not literally being payed in dollars that are leaving the country. He is payed in RMB. When a dollar 'leaves' the US, someone is trading it for RMB. Now someone else owns the RMB and someone else owns the dollar. But the dollar generally stays in the US. So why do we have a deficit with China? It depends on what happens to that dollar that stays in the US. If they (overall) spend it on goods and we spend it on goods, it would be in balance. If they spend it on accumulating a big US bond balance and we spend it on goods, that is the trade deficit. Now, this is similar to how banks work. When you put your money in the bank, it doesn't disappear, it is spent again by someone borrowing it. And when you buy a bond, the company or government can invest that money how it likes. The important thing is that China does not necessarily 'win' by doing this. US bonds pay very little, China might lose money overall. And for a while now their government has been doing the opposite (selling US dollars in order to keep the currency up). On a side note, most of the 'China' deficit is actually from other countries in Asia and just passing through China. For example, for an iPhone, the screen and CPU are much more valuable than assembling it, and those pieces are coming from Korea, Japan etc. It ships from China but most of it is not "made in china". And of course, most of the money goes to an American company. Hopefully I've at least managed to convince you that it's complicated. The good news is it doesn't seem to be a 'race to the bottom', at least for countries with separate currencies. In theory, if China allows strip mining and has an advantage there, that will make their currency more expensive and give their engineers a disadvantage. Edit: To be clear, I'd like to see human rights improve in China (and many other places). I'm just not sure trade is what is stopping that, it seems like if Foxconn shuts down the employees will just take lower-paying jobs under worse conditions and they'll open a factory in Vietnam or automate it. One last note about jobs in the US: I don't think economists view there being a fixed number of jobs - if there is more unemployment, the government can (via fiscal or monetary policy) step on the gas more without generating inflation. Of course, there is the problem that the jobs that are created may not be in the same location or need the same skills (and the US shares a currency, so there aren't the same self-balancing factors). Then that ties in to housing policy in the cities where jobs are being created, education etc. But these are things we can improve (although we probably won't).

kenmicklas 8y ago

> That's obviously not a great situation. Yet we, as in American companies, vastly incentivize such systems by shipping trillions of dollars worth of production to China. So we pride ourselves on more humane standards, yet send trillions of dollars to the lowest common denominator on labor that's a hair's breadth above slavery? This never made any sense to me. That's because American capitalists _don't_ value human and workers rights. And to a large degree, the American labor movement doesn't either - as long as it can escape the oppression of the American capitalists at home and have cheap consumer goods as a result of the export of capital to poorer countries. The only ways to alleviate this within the capitalist system is to either decrease the mobility of capital, or increase the mobility of labor (i.e. immigration). Unfortunately, neither of these are in the immediate interests of the American working class.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

throw272109 8y ago

> The big difference between Chinese and American labor is that we place a much higher standard on human and worker rights. I used to believe this until I read up on how prisoners in the US basically work like indentured servants for pennies. There's a few news articles and occasional "anger" at the situation, but I read about it 15+ years ago and nothing has changed. It's not like the average Chinese person is against human and worker rights. If you talk to them, of course they will say they value it. It's just those in power don't care. And those that do care, don't have the power to change anything.

aeternus 8y ago
Most of the prisoner work programs are optional. Same with foreign labor, yes working conditions are not optimal and there are improvements that could be made. However having an an alternative option is almost always better than not having that option. This problem may be best solved by actually making it easier for companies to participate in prisoner work-release programs, thereby increasing competition and driving up prisoner wages.

throwaway34241 8y ago

Even though I disagree I think these are reasonable arguments. I'd like to present what I think is the other side of the case: First regarding wages. I think Foxconn is around $2.50/hr. The suicide rate is actually lower than the national average I think, they are just the size of a small city so it's likely to happen (from mental illness). The nets seem to be them fighting bad publicity in a tone-deaf way that also generates bad publicity (and hopefully saves some people too). Of course, Foxconn is famous and gets more scrutiny. I'm sure other factories in China are worse. But, these people are probably not quitting their high-paying jobs to work in a factory. If they lose these jobs, they will probably not be better off! As the economy has been developing, wages have been going up in China, and more factory jobs have been moving to Bangladesh, Vietnam etc. But this has been due to economic development in China, not a trade war. I've only been talking about if it hurts the Chinese factory worker so far. But let's look at America. The Chinese factory worker is not literally being payed in dollars that are leaving the country. He is payed in RMB. When a dollar 'leaves' the US, someone is trading it for RMB. Now someone else owns the RMB and someone else owns the dollar. But the dollar generally stays in the US. So why do we have a deficit with China? It depends on what happens to that dollar that stays in the US. If they (overall) spend it on goods and we spend it on goods, it would be in balance. If they spend it on accumulating a big US bond balance and we spend it on goods, that is the trade deficit. Now, this is similar to how banks work. When you put your money in the bank, it doesn't disappear, it is spent again by someone borrowing it. And when you buy a bond, the company or government can invest that money how it likes. The important thing is that China does not necessarily 'win' by doing this. US bonds pay very little, China might lose money overall. And for a while now their government has been doing the opposite (selling US dollars in order to keep the currency up). On a side note, most of the 'China' deficit is actually from other countries in Asia and just passing through China. For example, for an iPhone, the screen and CPU are much more valuable than assembling it, and those pieces are coming from Korea, Japan etc. It ships from China but most of it is not "made in china". And of course, most of the money goes to an American company. Hopefully I've at least managed to convince you that it's complicated. The good news is it doesn't seem to be a 'race to the bottom', at least for countries with separate currencies. In theory, if China allows strip mining and has an advantage there, that will make their currency more expensive and give their engineers a disadvantage. Edit: To be clear, I'd like to see human rights improve in China (and many other places). I'm just not sure trade is what is stopping that, it seems like if Foxconn shuts down the employees will just take lower-paying jobs under worse conditions and they'll open a factory in Vietnam or automate it. One last note about jobs in the US: I don't think economists view there being a fixed number of jobs - if there is more unemployment, the government can (via fiscal or monetary policy) step on the gas more without generating inflation. Of course, there is the problem that the jobs that are created may not be in the same location or need the same skills (and the US shares a currency, so there aren't the same self-balancing factors). Then that ties in to housing policy in the cities where jobs are being created, education etc. But these are things we can improve (although we probably won't).