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I don't find this line of argumentation ("But the military builds great stuff, too!"), not to be very convincing. They also build a lot of really, really horri

by furyg3 8y ago

I don't find this line of argumentation ("But the military builds great stuff, too!"), not to be very convincing. They also build a lot of really, really horrible stuff, and most of the good stuff was actually built to support the horrible stuff. > According to Stephen J. Lukasik, who as Deputy Director and Director of DARPA (1967–1974) was "the person who signed most of the checks for Arpanet's development": > The goal was to exploit new computer technologies to meet the needs of military command and control against nuclear threats, achieve survivable control of US nuclear forces, and improve military tactical and management decision making. I love me some internet, but would I trade it for the possible annihilation of humankind? I'm being facetious, but only slightly; the fact that we wouldn't end up wiping humanity from the face of the earth was far from evident at the time (and still looms). You can probably run a calculation on how many lives military tech has saved (GPS, drones, evac helicopters), and it may come out as a net benefit, but I'm not sure you'd be able to convince an Afghani that his family's lives were worth an incremental technology improvement. I choose to believe that we are capable of taking on large experimental projects without them being connected to aggression.

afarrell 8y ago
Wouldn't an increase to the survivability of the command-and-control structure of the US nuclear forces mean that it would be harder for another power to think they could succeed in a nuclear attack on the US? Wouldn't that tend to decrease the likelihood of war?
- sdkjskf 8y ago
  Only if strategic balance is maintained. Otherwise there is a huge incentive for the stronger party to strike and win all The MAD equilibrium is very fragile!
torstenvl 8y ago
I'm sorry, but you're disregarding even the most rudimentary rigor in coming to these conclusions. Survivability is exactly what it sounds like. It isn't some conspiracy-theory euphemism for the "annihilation of humankind." It's a key component of MAD and is the one and only reason the Soviets didn't destroy the Western world from Cuba. This is well-documented. An Afghani is a unit of currency and has neither convictions nor family. I wouldn't be so pedantic usually, but since your very point seems to be the alleged dehumanization of such people, it seemed appropriate to point out that maybe we shouldn't refer to people as inanimate objects. As far as a civilian Afghan family's lives? That's what the DoD is trying to protect. Explain to me why you think more civilians should die, rather than developing better technology to help distinguish them. The Reuters journalists in the famous "Collateral Murder" video should not have been killed. I suspect you and I are in agreement on that. What I absolutely fail to comprehend is how you seem to think Google et al. have a moral obligation not to help keep that from happening again.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- ryacko 8y ago
  I want you to watch hundreds of hours of drone videos, and rewatch the Collateral Murder video and determine if you could decide if those were or weren't journalists.
  - torstenvl 8y ago
    I've watched thousands upon thousands of hours of drone video. Not sure what point you're trying to make.
- jackpirate 8y ago
  The simplest way to keep that from happening again is to prevent wars like Afghanistan from happening again. Technology that makes it easier for the DOD to justify a war (by reducing civilian casualties) makes war more likely. Therefore, be refusing to build this technology, you help make war less likely. I personally find this line of reasoning quite compelling. It's pretty clear that precision guided bombs, drones, body armor, and other technologies designed to save lives in war have also made war much more politically palatable for the DOD.
  - simonh 8y ago
    I'd love to have avoided the war in Afghanistan, it's a horrible quagmire with no end in sight. But let's not forget the western world was perfectly happy to let the Taliban get on with whatever they wanted to get on with, right up until they conspired with an international terrorist organisation operating from their territory with their support and blessing, to murder 2,977 people in New York. Until you can come up with a viable, demonstrably effective non-military approach to eliminating threats like that, we will continue to need a military capability. I speak as a Brit, about the wider 'we'. British troops are operating in Afghanistan right now, some of them are even Muslims. We're standing by the US, yet we have Americans here advocating undermining your own military, putting US and foreign services lives in greater danger, so they can feel a smug sense of moral superiority while sipping their skinny lattes in a nice comfortable office, just like the ones incinerated in New York in 2001. Wars are horrible messy affairs. Innocent people suffer. It sucks. But advocating pretending threats don't exist and it's not our problem without addressing the actual issues is an utter abrogation of moral responsibility. Western militaries have gone to huge lengths to improve intelligence gathering techniques and achieve more precise targeting, massively reducing civilian casualties and blue-on-blue incidents. Surely supporting such technologies and programmes is worthwhile?

by furyg3 8y ago

afarrell 8y ago

Wouldn't an increase to the survivability of the command-and-control structure of the US nuclear forces mean that it would be harder for another power to think they could succeed in a nuclear attack on the US? Wouldn't that tend to decrease the likelihood of war?

sdkjskf 8y ago
Only if strategic balance is maintained. Otherwise there is a huge incentive for the stronger party to strike and win all The MAD equilibrium is very fragile!

torstenvl 8y ago

I'm sorry, but you're disregarding even the most rudimentary rigor in coming to these conclusions. Survivability is exactly what it sounds like. It isn't some conspiracy-theory euphemism for the "annihilation of humankind." It's a key component of MAD and is the one and only reason the Soviets didn't destroy the Western world from Cuba. This is well-documented. An Afghani is a unit of currency and has neither convictions nor family. I wouldn't be so pedantic usually, but since your very point seems to be the alleged dehumanization of such people, it seemed appropriate to point out that maybe we shouldn't refer to people as inanimate objects. As far as a civilian Afghan family's lives? That's what the DoD is trying to protect. Explain to me why you think more civilians should die, rather than developing better technology to help distinguish them. The Reuters journalists in the famous "Collateral Murder" video should not have been killed. I suspect you and I are in agreement on that. What I absolutely fail to comprehend is how you seem to think Google et al. have a moral obligation not to help keep that from happening again.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
ryacko 8y ago
I want you to watch hundreds of hours of drone videos, and rewatch the Collateral Murder video and determine if you could decide if those were or weren't journalists.
- torstenvl 8y ago
  I've watched thousands upon thousands of hours of drone video. Not sure what point you're trying to make.
jackpirate 8y ago
The simplest way to keep that from happening again is to prevent wars like Afghanistan from happening again. Technology that makes it easier for the DOD to justify a war (by reducing civilian casualties) makes war more likely. Therefore, be refusing to build this technology, you help make war less likely. I personally find this line of reasoning quite compelling. It's pretty clear that precision guided bombs, drones, body armor, and other technologies designed to save lives in war have also made war much more politically palatable for the DOD.
- simonh 8y ago
  I'd love to have avoided the war in Afghanistan, it's a horrible quagmire with no end in sight. But let's not forget the western world was perfectly happy to let the Taliban get on with whatever they wanted to get on with, right up until they conspired with an international terrorist organisation operating from their territory with their support and blessing, to murder 2,977 people in New York. Until you can come up with a viable, demonstrably effective non-military approach to eliminating threats like that, we will continue to need a military capability. I speak as a Brit, about the wider 'we'. British troops are operating in Afghanistan right now, some of them are even Muslims. We're standing by the US, yet we have Americans here advocating undermining your own military, putting US and foreign services lives in greater danger, so they can feel a smug sense of moral superiority while sipping their skinny lattes in a nice comfortable office, just like the ones incinerated in New York in 2001. Wars are horrible messy affairs. Innocent people suffer. It sucks. But advocating pretending threats don't exist and it's not our problem without addressing the actual issues is an utter abrogation of moral responsibility. Western militaries have gone to huge lengths to improve intelligence gathering techniques and achieve more precise targeting, massively reducing civilian casualties and blue-on-blue incidents. Surely supporting such technologies and programmes is worthwhile?